To cut the test results short:


crank:
does crank on battery power freely, check!

compression front:

compression rear:

considering the engine heads and valves have worked for 110000 kms now and the gauge being a cheap amazon gauge of questionable quality and my amateur procedure with S&S compression release cams ... I would say : check as well!

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first oil pressure tets while cranking on battery (no spark/plugs of course):

not the slightest movement
(pic obsolete)

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opened up primary and found this:

oil pump drive gear had slid inwards from its correct position! (yeay ... or not?)

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Dowel pin had sheared in 3 pieces after 110k kms runtime (or ... is there another reason/event besides age which overwhelmed this M3x50 dowel pin?!):

found the middle section still in the pump drive shaft, and one of the outer sections just wedged in below the shifter mechanism.

Again cold sweat: where is the effen 2nd outer piece?

More research:
there is a passage from the primary into the well enclosed oil canister where the oil pump with screened pickup resides ... should be uncritical, and besides: @RACNRAY could not find the third piece in @30PlusRetlaw s engine either ... possibly same so far uncritical fate.

Investigating crank case internals and to understand where the drain passage from the primary goes I studied Brandon Bicasso's YouTube Videos of his engine rebuild ... and even more the awesome pics in @Ron H. s thread here TS 111 rebuild

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This is like reading a very good Columbo episode!!

 

... during my 10 days waiting to get the stupid M3x50 pin (officially USD 7.99 from Indian, maybe special material properties ?) I decided to look at/into my oil filter.

This incident happened at an engine life time of more than 110000 kms, about 2000 kms after my DIY 116 BBK upgrade. I had done a first oil change after 500 kms ... no obvious succeptible residues.
Now 1500 kms later on dismanteling and cleaning my PCS1 Flo reusable oil filter with carb cleaner I found this:

some minor magnetic sludge on the filter magnet:

... and from the wash of the 35micron metal mesh filter element some aluminium flakes and some floss flakes possibly from low quality shop towels or paper towels used during the 116 build (note to self: bad naughty elf!):

Are we here seeing a possible reason for the pin failure? (restricted enough oil filter!?!)

I need as well the recheck the flexible external lines to and from the oil cooler which was standard feature of my 2014 Chief Classic. While having the engine out of the frame the own weight of the cooler caused the whole thing to lean forward first unnoticed by me. The lines might have been kinked introducing restriction as well. (oh my ... small but possibly relevant detail! WTF)

as for the metal in the oil: since recently a 116 build was done I would not sweat it yet ... but I need to keep an eye on it next oil change. (if the engine has survived/will survive ... that is!)
On the other hand: there possibly is anecdotal hint to "restricted oil filter" caused pin to shear ...

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... during my 10 days waiting to get the stupid M3x50 pin (officially USD 7.99 from Indian, maybe special material properties ?) I decided to look at/into my oil filter.

This incident happened at an engine life time of more than 110000 kms, about 2000 kms after my DIY 116 BBK upgrade. I had done a first oil change after 500 kms ... no obvious succeptible residues.
Now 1500 kms later on dismanteling and cleaning my PCS1 Flo reusable oil filter with carb cleaner I found this:

some minor magnetic sludge on the filter magnet:
View attachment 745666

... and from the wash of the 35micron metal mesh filter element some aluminium flakes and some floss flakes possibly from low quality shop towels or paper towels used during the 116 build (note to self: bad naughty elf!):
View attachment 745667

Are we here seeing a possible reason for the pin failure? (restricted enough oil filter!?!)

I need as well the recheck the flexible external lines to and from the oil cooler which was standard feature of my 2014 Chief Classic. While having the engine out of the frame the own weight of the cooler caused the whole thing to lean forward first unnoticed by me. The lines might have been kinked introducing restriction as well. (oh my ... small but possibly relevant detail! WTF)

as for the metal in the oil: since recently a 116 build was done I would not sweat it yet ... but I need to keep an eye on it next oil change. (if the engine has survived/will survive ... that is!)
On the other hand: there possibly is anecdotal hint to "restricted oil filter" caused pin to shear ...

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Good stuff here @cmoalem! I seem to remember the oil cooler only take a portion of the oil from the filter and diverts it to the oil cooler. Since the oil cooler is optional on many of the 111s I can't see this being a problem. I remember sometime ago someone produced a oil flow schematic that showed that but I could be wrong (seem to be losing a few brain cells every day!). You and @Black2016RMrider both had your engines built up. I seem to remember @RACNRAY also had one in his shop but can't remember if that engine was worked on also. Even then it is hard to believe that anything in the build process could affect the oil system without splitting the case.

What would be very interesting to see is the ends of the pieces of the shear pin. Not sure how close a pic you can take of it but a roll pin that shears off from the shear load being applied to it will tend to pull a bit on the side walls of the pin before breaking. General fatigue will have more of a fractional separation or crack on the damaged section. This might give us a bit more insight as to what is causing this. Dean

 

Last Sunday afternoon after putting all back together and 5.5 quarts of fresh fully synthetic german LiquiMoly 10W50 Street Race Motorbike oil (probably engine survived because of this "good stuff"):

warm idle

Until furter notice and shake down tests ... "we" have survived!

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Pretty easy to tell you are running the 585s. Lots of valvetrain noise. D

 

Might want to take a look at this thread also. Look at the scavenge screen. Dean

2019 springfield dark horse died!

Good morning, just wanted to see if anyone else experienced my current predicament. 2 weeks ago now my 2019 springfield dark horse with roughly 8000 miles on it completely died while riding. I was able to restart the bike and get out off to the side of the road. After 75 feet or so it died...

www.indianmotorcycles.net

 

@Dean E : and here some close up shots of the pin fragments:

mid and one end put back together:

interesting discolorization!

mid part end:

end part end:

interesting silverish mid section and greyish outers.

Having said that: this could be the one end which sheared later/second due to one sided load.



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@Dean E : and here some close up shots of the pin fragments:

mid and one end put back together:
View attachment 745717
interesting discolorization!

mid part end:
View attachment 745718

end part end:
View attachment 745719
interesting silverish mid section and greyish outers.

Having said that: this could be the one end which sheared later/second due to one sided load.

here a pic of the mid part end "other side":
View attachment 745726
clean cut!

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Wow, I was expecting a roll pin not a solid pin. That is quite a bit of a shear load for a solid pin to let go. To me that looks like the pin cracked. Not sure as to the discoloration in the separation area. I know you can have this sent out for microscopic engineering evaluations to determine for certain. We used to do that when I was a tech rep on aircraft and had parts that failed unexpectedly. Did you see the scavenge screen from the other thread? Dean

 

and here another case (or multiple):

lost all oil pressure

Went to get on the interstate, oil light came on. And the normal clacking this thing makes all of a sudden changes to a very hollow clacking. The kind when your heads are getting any oil. Shut the motor down and coasted to a stop. Waited a few minutes and went to check the oil level. Unscrewed...

www.indianmotorcycles.net

 

here a pic of the mid part end "other end":

cleaner cut!

So ... what do the readers with more machinist experience tell? Fatigue due to age / faulty material ... or overload?

If "overload" : the reason for that could be restriction (oil filter clogged?) ... or something else ... could potentailly happen anytime again if not clearly identified and mitigated.

Age/faulty material: a new pin should reduce the risk!



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In my professional opinion Indian's choice in a long 3mm dia pin is adequate from their engineering standpoint. but inadequate in practical usage, There should NEVER be a failure such as a broken pin...NEVER. and if memory serves correct , maybe 5 have been reported? Maybe even more that this forum does not know about.
I have NEVER seen an oil pump drive pin on a Jap bike that small, they are usually 4 or 5mm dia, and that is on a single stage pump. The indian pump is 2 stage, pressure to lube the engine and scavenging. Lotsa tork needed to turn that pump! Lotsa localized stress on that pin.

On @30PlusRetlaw's skoot I wanted to make a modification and go to a larger dia pin. The gear had the meat to allow me to machine a wider slot but the pump shaft and the pin hole is recessed and no way could I get to the hole. And with the pump only accessible with complete engine teardown we just put it back together. His engine has been fine a few thousand miles later.

Our oil filters have by-pass valves in them so IF the element gets clogged enuff that valve will open allowing oil (albeit unfiltered ) to get to the engine. ANY oil pump drive system should be stout enuff to handle that scenario.

This is a design flaw, nothing else.

RACNRAY

 

This is what concerns me. These pics are from the other thread concerning a loss of oil pressure. This appears to be the scavenge screen at the engine case. Do not know if this can be accessed without splitting the case (my guess is not). This might be from a rag during engine work but I think it is more likely from the oil filter starting to come apart.

This is out of the parts breakdown. Item #3 is the screen. Can't see this causing a low oil pressure indication till the oil gets low enough back in the rear of the case to starve the pressure side of the pump or a pin failure of the gear. Being on the scavenge side I can see this really putting too much stress on the pump. I would think the screen would be sucked in or deformed from trying to suck the oil back to the scavenge pump. If this is part of the problem just replacing the pin would be a very short term fix. D

 

This is what concerns me. These pics are from the other thread concerning a loss of oil pressure. This appears to be the scavenge screen at the engine case. Do not know if this can be accessed without splitting the case (my guess is not). This might be from a rag during engine work but I think it is more likely from the oil filter starting to come apart.


View attachment 745732
View attachment 745733

This is out of the parts breakdown. Item #3 is the screen. Can't see this causing a low oil pressure indication till the oil gets low enough back in the rear of the case to starve the pressure side of the pump or a pin failure of the gear. Being on the scavenge side I can see this really putting too much stress on the pump. I would think the screen would be sucked in or deformed from trying to suck the oil back to the scavenge pump. If this is part of the problem just replacing the pin would be a very short term fix. D
View attachment 745734

That’s a rag or something like you said. This was mine at 24k, the screen did appear to be a little plugged with seemed to me like old assembly lube(the lotion like stuff). No idea what it really was, just blew it out with compressed air.

 

ok ... my take from this:

I have changed the pin and will ride the snot out of it!

If there is any reason for the oil pump to momentarily be loaded in some engines more than intended/designed for, then this cannot be fixed without a full tear down/case split of that particular engine.

If it is a design flaw ... then over time/numbers we will see more incidents. The only thing we can do right now is "enjoy to the max". Hopefully my next pin incident does not happen with this wonderful bike still in my posession, LOL.

So the M8s have their problems ... and we might have stumbled here over one of our inherent problems.
There is a post here from somebody who did 500k miles on his stockish Chieftain ... that gives hope! A LOT!



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Yeah, the sad thing is Indian might have a great deal more details on this issue but we will never hear about it from them. Can't argue from your logic here. Needless to say if my Indians post a LO OIL message I will immediately shut the bike down and trailer it back home to look at the pin! Dean

 

@RACNRAY small detail:

I have read that @30PlusRetlaw had starting/cranking problems on his bike that morning before it happened to him!

I now remember that the week before it happened to me I started to suspect my battery needs replacement. Same experience! I washed it off due to "116 higher compression" and such as has been reported multiple times before!

So ... hard start (attempts) due to stuck oil pump from stand still???!
What could cause that?

Will watch out for that in future if this happens again ... pucker pucker

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OH MY......It DOESN'T matter if a filter gets clogged, the engine is hard to start...blah blah blah. OIL PUMP PINS SHOULD NEVER BREAK!

PERIOD.

An inadequately designed assembly WILL break under the above mentioned conditions ( and others not mentioned, like a 60 weight oil). This issue is being OVERTHUNK. Just look at the design, and I found the amount of effort it took me to spin the oil pump with no oil in the engine was considerable. Add the presence of oil and the loading on that pn goes up.

FYI the oil pump drive pin on a roller bearing crank KZ1000 (high volume/low pressure lucky to see 15psi on a cold start) is 5MM.

RACNRAY

 

This filter comes from a 2014 chieftain. The gear of the oil pump was broken before I repaired it, but the previous repairman did not find the fragments and clean them. I guess the previous repairman just installed a new oil pump gear and delivered the car. I repaired this car because the owner said that the engine occasionally makes a strange noise and the screen will display oil low. At first, I noticed that the oil drain screw had been broken by someone and a lot of sealant had been applied. I thought they were blocking the oil passage. After disassembling the engine, we only saw these fragments, and some of the teeth of the oil pump gears were not photographed in the crankcase. Unfortunately, the crankshaft bearing of this engine has been damaged. To repair the crankshaft bearing here, we need to replace the crankcase, which requires nearly $10000. Yes, you did not mistake the amount. So the car owner requested to clean the debris and then install the engine back, but later he said that occasionally the engine would still sound (of course, I informed him in advance of the consequences of not repairing the crankshaft bearings).

 

This seems like the remains of a bad "conventional" oil filter ... desintegrated.

I am using a Flo PCS1 metal mesh filter for 3 years now ... every oil change I disassemble the filter and thoroughly wash it out with a strong solvent.
I have never seen such gunk from my engine... and desintegration / break down is a very low risk with a metal mesh.

The pickup screens of the oil pump hold back the biggest parts only ... and smaller particles which certainly would exist in such cases of conventional filter decomposition as well would appear in the drained oil and the rest in the "next" filter.

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this is why on both my springfielders i put a oil pressure gauge where the gas gauge usta be. in my opinion looking at the grain structure on that pin......improper heat treat as in too brittle, the slightest torsinal stress on it will cause it to shear. yes i usta be a toolmaker.