Interesting piece of motorcycle history . . .

"Indian built the first V-twin in 1903, the same year as the first Harley-Davidson (a single), but the layout appeared to have so many intrinsic benefits that it quickly spread. Harley's first V-twin, which debuted in '09, was not a success--providing a fantastic engineering lesson that simply doubling the cylinders was not enough. Harley didn't offer the V-twin in '10, but rebounded with the Model 7D in '11 that clearly formed the nucleus of what Harley was to become. Say what you want about Harley-Davidson, but the lads learned from their mistakes in the early days."

Emphasis mine.

 

So if I understand this correctly, Harley Davidson has enjoyed years of success that resulted from pirating an Indian design?

 

Moto Guzzi and Harley could be sued by Polaris ?

 

I've had the unpleasant experience of dealing with Polaris cust. serv. The girl was friendly and that's about it. They really are being geeks about the licensing agreements. Unless they plan to make parts for pre 1953s' what's the motivation other than greed. It may be legal but it is not honorable. It kinda pisses me off that I bought into something like that. I can't see it doing anything but hurting them in the long run.

 

You will soon be running into the same issue with cars and trucks. All the big auto makers claim that they own all the software running your vehicle so only authorized dealers are authorized to work on them. No more independent shops. You may own the car but according to GM, Ford, Chrysler, Mercedes, Mazda, Nissan and all the others the software and computer systems are their property. They want all the money and are going to Congress and the Courts to make this a reality.

Automakers to gearheads Stop repairing cars

 

You will soon be running into the same issue with cars and trucks. All the big auto makers claim that they own all the software running your vehicle so only authorized dealers are authorized to work on them. No more independent shops. You may own the car but according to GM, Ford, Chrysler, Mercedes, Mazda, Nissan and all the others the software and computer systems are their property. They want all the money and are going to Congress and the Courts to make this a reality.

Automakers to gearheads Stop repairing cars

So that's like saying they are the only ones with the right to make the points, condenser and distributor for your car? Yes? right?

So companies like Zippers (Thundermax) will have to pay or stop manufacturing???

 

Osceola is still running and producing engines for Polaris. Plants in India and Poland are not producing bikes or ATV's for North American use, skirting tariffs by assembling overseas.

The author of this poorly written, angry letter should do more research into the facts and never write when he's angry. If he and his buddies (and their parts suppliers) want to use the Indian name, pay the damned price!! If they don't keep the Indian name and logo off their parts! If they were so freak'n pissed about the licensing fees, they should have bought the Indian name/brand/trademark themselves!!

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Osceola is still running and producing engines for Polaris. Plants in India and Poland are not producing bikes or ATV's for North American use, skirting tariffs by assembling overseas.

The author of this poorly written, angry letter should do more research into the facts and never write when he's angry. If he and his buddies (and their parts suppliers) want to use the Indian name, pay the damned price!! If they don't keep the Indian name and logo off their parts! If they were so freak'n pissed about the licensing fees, they should have bought the Indian name/brand/trademark themselves!!

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Agree with you Sunge! What in the heck to they expect, it's business.....agree 100%, welcome to America!

 

I just though it interesting that the previous holders of the brand, did not make the same claims.
I wonder how this has affected "Kiwi Indians"

101 Association

Classic Bikes from the AMA Motorcycle Hall of Fame Museum

 

This "Trademark" if you will, isn't indicative to just Indian. I do understand the retroactive idea that people were making parts before Polaris took over the Indian name. But, Polaris bought and maintains this trademark and Therefore is the owner of the name.
Do you think they are the only ones? Not in the least. Look at Harley Davidson. There isn't anything with their name on it that Harley doesn't get a cut from. They have even gone so far as to try and trademark the exhaust sound. Luckily they lost that one recently in court.
People that want to make something with the name of another company's product should have to pay for that privaledge. The company that has the trademark is the one footing the money to maintain the product and others want to make money off that name without putting up the big money in making the bikes, in this case, and all the R&D, advertising and everything else that goes into building a name and maintaining it as Polaris is doing with the Indian. If they would just not use the Indian name, they can still make these parts and say they will work on an Indian or what ever product they want.
There are far more other companies that are doing this as well. I was just using Harley as close example of the same thing Polaris is doing.
I may not personally agree with how coorporate America gets away with the things they do, but that is a complete horse of a different color. That is the law of the land now. Unfortunately money does the talking today. We are the end user of any corporations product. We have the choice to buy it or not. They have the choice to back the product up or not too. It all comes down to making a profit and sometimes the end user is the one who suffers from it when a corporation doesn't have a good customer satisfaction agenda. From what I have seen so far from a few dealerships, Polaris has done far better in this department than others. But, that is an arguable point too. Each person has their own idea of satisfaction. Some are happy with things, some aren't , and others are never happy with any outcome.

 

Points to ponder for my Lawyer Friends...Im going to enjoy my Indian Vintage ride and look at the smiles on the old photos of the past and present riders

 

Same here Mcnortone. Most enjoyable bike I have had to date bar none.

 

I remember several years ago when the victorys were coming out that HD was trying to use litigation to keep anyone from using their unique sound. I thought that was just ridiculous and made my mind up even more never to purchase any of their products. So why do I have an Indian, I have a very long history (40 years) of owning Polaris products. In the 70"s I raced their snowmobiles and did very well. They were well built balanced and very dependable machines unlike my friends AC's. So I have a built in brand loyalty to them. As you can see I also like Yamahas for the same reasons, but that's just their motorcycles.

 

Yamaha make Great Grand piano's too.

 

It's a vicious circle.

Corporations are owned by SHAREHOLDERS who appoint EXECUTIVES to run the business, and in the process the EXECUTIVES are given financial incentives to crank maximum return on investment. Both SHAREHOLDERS and EXECUTIVES care for nothing other than MONEY.... that is, money in their respective pockets.

The only way they can get money is by enticing CUSTOMERS to give it to them.

And WE will give it to them while ever we get what we want in return. Give us too little, and we will walk away. Give us a good deal and we'll stay loyal and keep feeding them. The EXECUTIVE's job is to give us just enough to make us hang around, while leaving enough money in their coffers to feed their masters, the SHAREHOLDERS.

I intend to ignore everything except my Springfield Blue Vintage, and be thankful that a team of engineers sweated their bums off burning the midnight oil to produce it, and thankful that cashed up shareholders funded it, and that retail gamblers presented it to me at a price I could afford. Whether Indian survives, thrives or dives depends on the Bean Counters and SHAREHOLDERS.

My guess us that in the long run Indian will go through that familiar old business cycle. They'll thrive until they start looking for bigger bottom lines by decreasing quality and substituting inferior (foreign?) parts.

Somehow that old Proverb comes to mind.... HUMAN DESIRES ARE LIKE THE WORLD OF THE DEAD,,,, THERE'S ALWAYS ROOM FOR MORE !!!!!!!

 

I don't care about the Polaris execs anymore than they care about me. I bought a Polaris Indian because they do care about building reliable machines and have a reputation of engineering excellence.

 

Polaris so far has put Indian back on the radar screen. The revival has generated a lot of interest between the old and new. Why not ride that wave and everyone make money. The parts makers for the older bikes are helping Polaris sales and visa versa. Start a ridiculous pissing contest and everyone looses. Some of the after market suppliers will close and Polaris will be alienating future customers. Some of you are saying why didn't those companies buy the rights? I wonder why Polaris hasn't secured contracts with them to sell those parts exclusively thru their own dealerships at obscene markups. Win win for everyone and Polaris gets to create the illusion of commitment to the Indian brand.

 

John Deere is in on this action as well.

General Motors John Deere want to make tinkering self-repair illegal ExtremeTech

 

This all happened once before back in the 1970s. The company was Volkswagen and the independent shops had to stop using the name and the initials VW. They all smartened up real quick and advertised foreign repairs or german car repairs and the best one Import repairs which opened the gates for the Japanese imports, eventually life went on. The exception VW with its new found power started making cars like the Thing that no one wanted and Datsun made the 240Z that everyone wanted and if not for the world stage, corporate mergers, buyouts and US courts the Volkswagen company most likely would have gone the way of the Reich that spawned them. We all like to think of ourselves as these rugged types challenging ourselves the roads and conformity, but if you own a cell phone you are in fact to coin an old expression from the 60s "part of the problem." Self comfort and self image are the most powerful narcotics available to mankind, corporations have spent billions discovering this and exploiting it. I may in point be blowing smoke up my own tailpipe, but I can be reached at Kiss my Indian@bite of the forbidden fruit. com

 

Yamaha make Great Grand piano's too


Yes they do lol, I really enjoy your sense of humor keep it up.

 

Greedy Corporations, CEOs, Executives???.....You bet! I bet they are as greedy about their money as you are about your paycheck.
I don't get why people believe that the corporations owe you something more than what you decided to buy.
It's like someone inheriting money....All of a sudden others in the bar believe the one who inherited should buy all the drinks. Buy your own drinks! Start your own business. Educate yourself and get the personality it takes to hold that CEO position. Be willing to walk over all the others that are vying for the position.
And for gods sake...Send me $100 for my insight, or I will consider you greedy. You wouldn't want to be thought of like a lowly CEO or Corporation would you?

 

There's a difference between building replicas and resurrecting a brand. If you're building replicas you're just raping the name and you're no better than Tommy Stinkfinger who made more money suing for copy right infringement than he ever did with his clothing line. The dealers get it and most of them own vintage Indians or have someone working for them that does. The rider's groups have members with old bikes and this brings legitamitcy to the brand. People feel they're part of the heritage. Sorry but image is a big part of it and this is where Polaris could take a lesson from HD. He who controls the past controls the future, he who controls the present controls the past.

 

View attachment 18485 There's a difference between building replicas and resurrecting a brand. If you're building replicas you're just raping the name and you're no better than Tommy Stinkfinger who made more money suing for copy right infringement than he ever did with his clothing line. The dealers get it and most of them own vintage Indians or have someone working for them that does. The rider's groups have members with old bikes and this brings legitamitcy to the brand. People feel they're part of the heritage. Sorry but image is a big part of it and this is where Polaris could take a lesson from HD. He who controls the past controls the future, he who controls the present controls the past.

I'm not sure what you mean...

Polaris has a 50 year gap... They say they are building the new bike as if they never had stopped production.

And that interpretation of what it would be is supposed to be based on enthusiasts knowledge of the brand.

The only bike I've read about as being head and shoulders above the rest is the scout 101..

It was 370lbs.. My old BMW was around that weight and it was easy as riding a bicycle.. To handle..

Polaris has got the skirts which were popular with Indian for a short time.

They now have the heavy weight of a hog.. With a bigger cube motor.. (Modern Too)..

Light bikes have there place and advantages.

Polaris is trying to hit HD head on..

Bonehead explain more what you mean please.

 

Sorry to pee in anybody's soup, but these are the hard facts about corporate America:
1) First priority is to maximize value for their shareholders.
2) Having a laser focus on continually strategizing to maximize profit by increasing revenue, decreasing expenses, or both.

Polaris is not in business to be our friends. They are in business to stay in business. Now, imho, a business should treat each and every customer/client as their most important customer. After all, in our eyes, we are. Polaris may sell thousands of bikes, but we bought only one. I'm sure they are intelligent enough to know that referral sales are always your most important sales source....that person has already been sold on the product by a friend before they even visit a dealership.

Another fact about corporate America is that individual managers, division presidents, etc,. may not always follow the corporate initiatives or vision toward customer elation (I dislike the term " customer satisfaction". I do not want my clients to just be satisfied. For you readers in the group, check out the short but excellent book "Raving Fans". It has been required reading in my divisions for all my employees, from VP's to entry level trainees). I see this disparity in individual dealership reviews in quite a few threads on this site, riders who are complaining about their dealers while others sing their praises. The difference is usually in the attitude and commitment from the individual running that division.

The last thing I want to share with you is that - I promise - nobody at any corporate office is willfully trying to just piss you off. Yes, sometimes they do, whether is just a short-sighted decision that they hope will blow over and reap long-term benefits, or it is just plain old incompetence in not realizing the value brought to the brand by previously elated customers. In my previous life, I had the honor of reporting to a few wonderful CEO's and COO's, and have also suffered through a few arrogant, uncaring, and flat out incompetent folks (making millions of dollars a year) who did not understand the value that all of us would bring to the table. I'm confident that Polaris will make the right decisions for the long term, which, to me, includes ensuring my continued love with my "Bella" Vintage so I can keep singing their praises to everyone who asks about my bike. Yes, Polaris, I'll send you referrals.

Way off base for a V-twin Primer thread....my apologies.

 

No apologies necessary... What you present is just another piece of the equation.

The proof is in the pudding.. Next quarters report. [cigar]

And I've said it before. Polaris will have to make it on there own merit...

Because they have not followed the Indian formula..

They've built yet another V-twin.
And their hope is that with the styling cues and a famous defunct brand name, it will give them the edge or chance to grab HD sales..(just business)

 

While I enjoy the Trolling about the Big Bad Polaris/Indian.... Harley fan boys are the last group that should be giving any company crap about the Big Bad Corp.

 

Well I believe that if not all,most corporations, are as the famous lawyer "Gerry Spence" calls them "super dead tribes" and their babies are their dollars.

Polaris, as HD should have their feet held to the fire.

To "delight the customer"

 

It's not a rebadged Royal Enfield or a S&S kit bike now. You have to give Polaris credit for more than just buying the name. It's a newly designed v twin from the ground up built in it's own plant and is called an Indian, hell it even looks like an Indian. If they're still around in 20 or 30 years it really will be an Indian. Nobody stopped calling a Jeep a Jeep when Chrysler took over. Polaris and Harley Davidson are exactly the same in the eyes of Wall Street, they only survive if their product sells, it doesn't matter what they call it.

 

Absolute true statement. The new Indians are not a regurgitated product that was just rebadged..

The Scout interestingly enough uses the 60 degree twin that HD uses in the V-Rod and Yamaha in the Bolt and others.

I'm not a fan of that motor or the cast aluminum frames.

But the Scout does offer a lot of modern, well engineering and performing proven tech.

I almost bought one.. Tired of waiting.. And actually after more thought, smaller then Id like for a full time travel bike.

The chief is beautiful. I do fault Polaris for not getting the details right.. Like top quality paint, or chrome that doesn't peal off the side stand... To me that says rookies.. Come on guys you've been building mototcycles for 15 or so years..

27,000 for a bike with lousy paint and chrome??

Yet I can't see myself riding a chief.. But I'm not a HD poser either.. At least I don't think I could live down to that image..

The Hog chapters make me cringe.
Not that there is not a lot of good people there.

Motorcycle riding has never been a group activity for me.. It's more personal then that, for me.

And I take it real personal if some incompetent works on it and screws up my bikes personality.

The Slow turning V-twin is entertaining. And comforting on long rides.

I like to let it run.. Not use it for everything it's worth.

I was ready to give up on HD. Every year they would fix 2 things and Fvck up something else.

Which year to buy, to get a good one?

BD makes fun of my 45 degree cadence..
But to me that's how a bike is supposed to sound.

Knife and fork crank. Old school.. Puts the vibration in the middle of the motor. Rubber mount it.. It's good.

Old school refined... Every year, save the screw ups the corperation makes to save money.

Overtime as Indian develops its own personality and will become known and hopefully have a huge fan base...
And the corperation is smart enough to listen to the customers.

 

It is an Indian there is nothing else it could be. We're talking tech now and marketing strategy. Husky is right in pointing out they got some things wrong so does Harley, and they both get a lot right. To promote the brand Polaris needs to create a link to the past, but starting with a clean slate they were able to build a bike that is mechanically superior to a Harley. Can I get around my buddy's Road King? Yes, but I'm doing a 100 plus by the time I do and that bike is not really fun at 100 plus. Besides he's my buddy, we're a couple of old farts riding together why would I leave him behind? The v twin air cooled cruiser has come about as far as it can. Polaris has proved that twice now. The Victory and now the Indian are only marginally better than a Harley. If Indian needs to connect to the past, Harley has the problem of not being able to separate from theirs. Being the oldest continuous brand they're forced to adhere to their own standard. Don't anyone think for a minute that Harley doesn't have completely new designs of their own that could top Polaris. But by how much and at what cost? New Coca-Cola was a disaster and they had to go back to the same old thing. Everyone likes the old Coke and they still like Harley Davidson. Harley is more than capable of reinventing the cruiser, but is there really a market for it? If you like old school, stop complaining or get ready to embrace the future.

 

You're spot on ! Harley has projects going on but its a gamble not to scatter the flock with something they may not be ready for. If you search the internet you can pickup some info on some of these projects.

 

A interesting article of HD being Doomed.
Written in 2010... Thought provoking read.
Harley Is Doomed The Aging Rebel

rather than double posting this like, why didn't you just create a new thread?

 

If this is a successful venture and it looks like it will be, history will remember Polaris as the company that brought back Indian.

 

As Menneto said, Polaris found out they brought a product to a brand fight regarding Victory's sales vs. Harley. The acquisition of Indian Motorcycle has allowed them (Polaris) bring a brand to a brand fight.

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