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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
In preparation for the 116 install on my '17 CL, I ordered a Venom Plenum intake from VicBaggers. What I learned is that the VP tapers from 60mm on the throttle body side down to 54mm to match the factory intake manifold. The new 116 intake manifold is 60mm and therein lies the problem.

While the current VP will physically bolt up to the new 60mm manifold, it's not an optimal situation from a performance standpoint.

I talked to Eric from VicBaggers and he is aware of the issue and told me that they are getting ready to release a new VP specifically for the 116 that eliminates the taper and is 60mm on both ends. He sent me a CAD drawing of the new piece, but I'll wait until I have the part in hand before I post pics, hopefully in a couple of weeks.

As soon as I get the new VP, I'm having the 116 installed. Since my local dealer doesn't have much experience with the PVCX (which I already have), I'm just going to suffer with the factory flash until I get to Daytona in March and have KMC tune it for me.

I'll post results once Kyle works his magic.
 

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In preparation for the BBK install on my '17 CL, I ordered a Venom Plenum intake from VicBaggers. What I learned is that the VP tapers from 60mm on the throttle body side down to 54mm to match the factory intake manifold. The new BBK intake manifold is 60mm and therein lies the problem.

While the current VP will physically bolt up to the new 60mm manifold, it's not an optimal situation from a performance standpoint.

I talked to Eric from VicBaggers and he is aware of the issue and told me that they are getting ready to release a new VP specifically for the BBK that eliminates the taper and is 60mm on both ends. He sent me a CAD drawing of the new piece, but I'll wait until I have the part in hand before I post pics, hopefully in a couple of weeks.

As soon as I get the new VP, I'm having the BBK installed. Since my local dealer doesn't have much experience with the PVCX (which I already have), I'm just going to suffer with the factory flash until I get to Daytona in March and have KMC tune it for me.

I'll post results once Kyle works his magic.
Fuel Moto hasn't done any mapping for the BBK yet - they are waiting to get an Indian with the kit installed. I just emailed them about that yesterday. I want to do the BBK. I currently have the PVCX on my bike and want it on after I install the BBK also.
 

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I guess you know that if the VP and the 60mm TB does anything even close to the radical power increase it makes on a stock bore, you might end up with the most powerful thunderstroke to date.. However, your combo will be quite "outside the envelope" from any current tune and will require a complete revamp of any "base" mapping installed from any tuner/shop..

We(this forum) have "new knowledge" of KMC tuning - it is quite safe to say that KMC is not the best PVCX tuning solution.. Currently, a 116 + VP combo will have to be dialed in with a WBCX+PVCX combo by CraigB1960 through the FM remote tune process - you can rent the WBCX from FM for this.. Recent Forum experiences dictate that you will be doing this process whether you have Kyle tune it first or not..

Also from recent Forum experience, your combo will most likely over tax the stock injectors' Duty Cycle range (require over 80% DC over a large range of operation..) CraigB1960 can fill you in...

For more, contact Craig - he is your new best friend..
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I guess you know that if the VP and the 60mm TB does anything even close to the radical power increase it makes on a stock bore, you might end up with the most powerful thunderstroke to date.. However, your combo will be quite "outside the envelope" from any current tune and will require a complete revamp of any "base" mapping installed from any tuner/shop..

We have "new knowledge" of KMC tuning - it is quite safe to say that KMC is not the best PVCX tuning solution.. Currently, a 116 + VP combo will have to be dialed in with a WBCX+PVCX combo by CraigB1960 through the FM remote tune process - you can rent the WBCX from FM for this.. Recent experiences dictate that you will be doing this process whether you have Kyle tune it first or not..

Also from recent experience, your combo will most likely over tax the stock injectors' Duty Cycle range (require over 80% DC over a large range of operation..) CraigB1960 can fill you in...

For more, contact Craig - he is your new best friend..
I certainly appreciate your thoughts on this. I've read numerous threads from you, Craig, cmoalem, and others regarding the TS 111/PVCX issues and am genuinely grateful that you've not only spent untold hours working to make our bikes run better, but more importantly, that you've all been so willing to share that hard earned information with the Indian community.

That said, Kyle has done phenomenal work for me in the past with very impressive results. While I admit that this was on a Freedom 106/PCV platform, Kyle does have experience with the TS 111/PVCX combo. I assume the "new knowledge" you're referring to is the dyno chart from KMC that was posted recently showing a 14+:1 AFR across the board on a TS 111 tune. I'll have to talk to Kyle and ask him if that was in fact a true AFR reading or an anomaly. I find it hard to believe that he, or any other reputable tuner, would deliberately tune that lean a condition throughout the RPM range. Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that Kyle is the greatest thing since sliced bread, I'm just saying that I've been very happy with his previous work.

Regarding the injectors, I haven't seen any hard numbers on the potential gains in going from an Indian S1 intake to a VP, but if what you're saying about the stock injectors is true, then it sounds like the 116 kit with the recommended S1 intake must already be pushing the injectors so close to an 80% DC that installing the VP pushes the DC over that line. Either that or the VP flows a WHOLE lot more air than the S1.

Thanks again for the information. I'm really looking forward to talking to Craig and hopefully enlisting his help in sorting this thing out. I should have the new VP in a couple of weeks with the BBK install to follow. I'll be sure to post results as we get this baby dialed in.

This could turn out to be very interesting!!!
 

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Outstanding ! You are quite "up to speed" on the subject.. But the "Forum" experience I was referring to is not just the aforementioned chart, and is not actually "published" on the threads yet (and may not ever be out of respect for KMC) - it is with what is/has been found (the actual programming) on KMC tuned bikes..

Data on the stock injectors as well as the Lloydz injectors is just now coming to light - literally as we speak..And is quite "illuminating" ... Again, Craig is your new best friend..

If you have Kyle attempt to "reinvent the wheel" (which is what your bike will need) with the PVCX: Start, restart, and ride your bike for a thorough test and MPG test before leaving Daytona.. Get your Dyno Sheet WITH the AFR, make sure it shows 13 or just under 13 across the board..

IMO (probably worthless), I'd expect your bike to show over 115hp and over 135 lb ft or "somethin aint right".. But obviously we have little to "go on" regarding the 116 kit, its' cams, and the VP - only what the VP does to stock bores with Indian Stage II cams vs "standard" stage 1 air cleaners..

P.S. We/I would like to know if his mobile unit has a functioning eddy brake - His data (his tunes) seem to indicate that he does not / that he "tunes" without one..
 

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Most tuners start from a factory flash as a baseline. Especially if they come from a PCV background (it is a piggy back unit which always works relative to what the ECU is producing)!

Considering that factory as we meanwhile have learned has messed up stock flashes (see the clackers) with incorrectly "modelled" VE tables and cylinder individual fuelling tables accross the board (stock, SI and SII, recall flash) and the SII timing crap on top ANY performance tuner should start fixing the issues FIRST before applying his bag of PCV experience on a PVCX tune!

A VE model which causes a stock bike to continuously have fueltrims of -10 to -20% for closed loop and AFRs in the 11s at WOT is not going to help extreme spark advance experiments for WOT to get the top peak hp numbers (without substantial knock!). Any monitoring of the Timing Correction channels due to knock will unveil unpleasant behaviour. (besides those aggressive primary timing advances for WOT getting eliminated if you are lucky!)

Craig is on the right track! Most other tuners still have to learn to read/analyze data channels ... when switching to the PVCX!!!
(Oh ... and to modify the right tables in the right sequence ... using actual log data, filters and smoothing ... instead of manually tweaking some tables!)

BTW ... I have a 111 TS with Indian SII cams ... and a VP60 ... and KhromeWerks/Lloydz mufflers, Jackpot mid pipe. I am actually hitting ~ AFR 13.2 in the upper load areas including WOT (verified with a WBCX):
And my stock injector duty cycles already touch 80% at WOT!

(Yes ... seems to breath very well my beast! Even with pillion I can break the rear tire lose on dry asphalt in 2nd and 3rd gear!)

(I cannot imagine what duty cycles a rich at WOT SII tune hitting low 12s with a VP60 is requiring!!! Not mentioning a 116 with a VP60!)

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
 

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There's a 16 Roadmaster in MO with a big bore kit and Venom plenum but I don't think it's been on a Dyno yet. Just FYI. Can the plenum not be ported to size?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I was under the impression that the current big bore kits aren't compatible with MY16 and older engines. Maybe this guy's local Indian tech has found a way to make it work?

Based on the information in the responses above, if he's running a factory flash with a 116/VP setup, he's leaving a lot on the table. Hopefully he's a member here and will see this thread.
 

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C, do us all a favor and target 12.8 @ WOT with a corresponding "re-smoothing" of the AFR targets in the upper RPM and loadings near WOT - and a resulting ride report..??
(12.8 is a faster flame front than 13.2, so if you've optimized timing for 13.2 watch the knock sensor..)

Your bike should be at or above 104hp / 134 trq.. except for the 13.2 @ WOT ?

How bout it..?
 

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C, do us all a favor and target 12.8 @ WOT with a corresponding "re-smoothing" of the AFR targets in the upper RPM and loadings near WOT - and a resulting ride report..??
(12.8 is a faster flame front than 13.2, so if you've optimized timing for 13.2 watch the knock sensor..)

Your bike should be at or above 104hp / 134 trq.. except for the 13.2 @ WOT ?

How bout it..?
:D ... yeah ... I noticed I get some noticeable knock/timing corrections if I run below 13 at WOT.
(slightly too much advance from the FM timing for richer than 13!)
I will go lower than 13 at WOT, after I have gained more knowledge about our ECU timing algorithms ... and finished my timing scripts :cool:

As for power currently ... don't know if I even want more power than for "driftable" on demand (where I am already).
As for top speed ... just touched 118 mph three days ago.
Never mind ... most likely I will do the final touches soon and report back.
 

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Yeah, the way the timing maps inter-operate is a real pain to sort through.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I finally received the new VP from VicBaggers. It's a two-piece design and is 60mm from end to end with no taper as with the original VP. Eric and Jacob from VicBaggers intentionally machined the inside surface with the small ridges as seen in the photos below. The intent is to help atomize the air/fuel mixture and prevent pooling of fuel along the inside radius of the elbow. Will it be effective? Don't know, but we'll find out soon.

I'm taking the bike in today to have the 116" kit installed. The tech will also be installing 18mm bungs in the exhaust for WB O2 sensors.

I'm going to run the Indian S3 flash until I get to Daytona and let Kyle tune it. I talked to him last week and he has a WBCX module to piggyback off of my PVCX during the tuning process.

I've seen the other discussions regarding the limitations of the stock injectors, but I'm going to stick with them for now. I've had several conversations with @CraigB1960 about this build and once I get the bike tuned, I may ask him to look at the tune file to see if he thinks the Fuel Moto Advanced Remote Tuning Service would be of any additional benefit. That might be the time to upgrade the injectors, if required.

I'll post dyno results as soon as I get them.

The first three pics were sent to me by Jacob at VicBaggers during the manufacturing/assembly process. The last pics are mine, showing how the VP looks after powdercoating.

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Now I may just have to wait (until this version is released) before I purchase the VP for my TS111 project.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Now I may just have to wait (until this version is released) before I purchase the VP for my TS111 project.
Herk, this VP is designed specifically for the 116 kit which comes with a new 60mm intake manifold. Although the original VP does have a 60mm inlet on the throttle body side, it tapers down to 54mm on the end that connects to the stock 54mm 111 intake.
 

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Herk, this VP is designed specifically for the 116 kit which comes with a new 60mm intake manifold. Although the original VP does have a 60mm inlet on the throttle body side, it tapers down to 54mm on the end that connects to the stock 54mm 111 intake.
OK now I get it...... Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
The 116 kit is finally installed!! :D:D

Below are a couple of shots of the new 116-specific Venom Plenum and a link to a video of the bike idling. I'm positive the factory flash is waaaay lean, but once I get the bike dyno tuned with the PVCX and WBCX, I'll post a dyno sheet along with a performance review. I'm really interested to see how this new VP performs.

Here's a video of the bike idling:

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