TS111 possible lean (tune) issue

1053 Views 34 Replies 12 Participants Last post by cmoalem, 1 d ago

JOHNNY3FINGERS

Discussion Starter · 12 d ago

TS111
Rinehart - full system
Wimmer round AC
Stg3 cams

Im not a mechanic so if anyone happens across this thread and understands how to read plugs could you comment with your opinion of please.
Thank you.

Have some pinging. Sounds like a chain rattling around in my top end. Thought it was bad gas but its always there.

Maybe I have a lean condition and need my tune adjusted?

I can make it happen at any time. If I accelerate with more than a gentle roll it starts, from there if I go WOT it stops and when cruising steady its not present either.

Changed the plugs to iridium and one step cooler w/.040 gap but its not going to make any improvement if I am lean.

I am not a mechanic. Heres what came out of it. Top pic is more what they look like (white). Bottom pic didn't really capture the ashy look of them

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Charlie Chaplain

· #2 · 12 d ago

JOHNNY3FINGERS said:
TS111
Rinehart - full system
Wimmer round AC
Stg3 cams

Im not a mechanic so if anyone happens across this thread and understands how to read plugs could you comment with your opinion of please.
Thank you.

Have some pinging. Sounds like a chain rattling around in my top end. Thought it was bad gas but its always there.

Maybe I have a lean condition and need my tune adjusted?

I can make it happen at any time. If I accelerate with more than a gentle roll it starts, from there if I go WOT it stops and when cruising steady its not present either.

Changed the plugs to iridium and one step cooler w/.040 gap but its not going to make any improvement if I am lean.

I am not a mechanic. Heres what came out of it. Top pic is more what they look like (white). Bottom pic didn't really capture the ashy look of them

Plug reading is a science. From my two-stroke days, you look at the ground strap, and see where the heat mark is. Your plugs (there is only one photo) shows the heat mark well past the curve, into the vertical part of the strap. This would indicate to me, a lean condition which would make the combustion chamber run hotter. You could be correct that it is running lean. Have you had a tune flashed, or is it the stock tune? Normally, bikes are set up with a lean air/fuel ratio for emissions, and anything that you mod to the intake/exhaust will affect your A/F ratio. I would recommend a FuelMoto tune for your bike. The white ceramic of the insulator around the electrode would also indicate a lean mixture.
Charlie

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Skidmore111

· #3 · 12 d ago

I am running almost the same set up except I have the venom plenum intake.
Have you check for any vacuum leaks at the manifold boots? their prone to crack from the heat of the engine which would cause a lean condition,and loose header flange bolts will cause the same,and may need snugging up.

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JOHNNY3FINGERS

Discussion Starter · #4 · 12 d ago

Charlie Chaplain said:
Plug reading is a science. From my two-stroke days, you look at the ground strap, and see where the heat mark is. Your plugs (there is only one photo) shows the heat mark well past the curve, into the vertical part of the strap. This would indicate to me, a lean condition which would make the combustion chamber run hotter. You could be correct that it is running lean. Have you had a tune flashed, or is it the stock tune? Normally, bikes are set up with a lean air/fuel ratio for emissions, and anything that you mod to the intake/exhaust will affect your A/F ratio. I would recommend a FuelMoto tune for your bike. The white ceramic of the insulator around the electrode would also indicate a lean mixture.
Charlie

thanks for response. I have a custom craigb tune so I don't think its specifically the tune but maybe there is another root cause

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JOHNNY3FINGERS

Discussion Starter · #5 · 12 d ago

Skidmore111 said:
I am running almost the same set up except I have the venom plenum intake.
Have you check for any vacuum leaks at the manifold boots? their prone to crack from the heat of the engine which would cause a lean condition,and loose header flange bolts will cause the same,and may need snugging up.

Thanks for the response. I need to check the header bolts today. I will need to check manifold boots too not sure what these look like guessing they sit between ac and manifold some place, hopefully its just an obvious unmistakable black rubber piece

Skidmore111

· #6 · 12 d ago

The intake boots are black rubber parts that connect the intake manifold to the cylinder heads.
New ones are cheap but a bit of a pain to swap out.You can test them spraying WD-40 or brake cleaner while the bike is running -the engine will stumble or in some cases will rise depending on the chemical being used.

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Lee-Bro

· #7 · 12 d ago

Any chance this sound started w/ the new air cleaner? The reason I ask is that when I went from the stock TS111 a.c. on my '19 SF to the round Stage 1, I wasn't ready for the increased "ticking" sound of the actual intake sucking in the air. At first, I thought it was lifter or some type of head noise that I hadn't noticed before, but it's the actual sound of the intake system. The frequency in which it happens is similar to yours. I'm so accustomed to it now, that I don't really notice it and if I do, I just roll on the throttle a bit more.

Without hearing the sound you're referring to, it's hard to say it's the same thing. But going simple things first, I'd suggest that perhaps you're just hearing the intake system now more than you did w/ the stock a.c. Now, if you had this issue before the mods, then I'll let someone who's mechanically knowledgeable help out w/ ideas.

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cmoalem

· #8 · 12 d ago (Edited)

111 with S 3 cams?

I assume you got your bike tuned by somebody! (I strongly hope so!)

From what I understand from your explanations on when the rattle happens and when it stops (at WOT) your transition from closed loop to open loop seems to be pinging yes.

As for the spark plugs: Spark plug reading usually is done on brand new plugs and after controlled/repeatable driving conditions (e.g. on the track).
Yours show the mixed effect of 80% closed loop riding with "some" open loop up to WOT ... over a LOT of kms.

In general the 80% stoich closed loop riding should actually produce a clean white ceramic color, which yours show.
And that is NOT too lean!

What slightly concerns me a bit more is the ash grey long streched pattern on the electrodes as mentioned in the posts before. Some more than usual heat ... with maybe slight pre detonation!
("colder" plugs do NOT help here, and a larger gap certainly neither, especially if you are running the stock dwell table!)

What DOES help here is if your tuner looks at the AFRs in certain areas and goes a bit richer ... and then he needs to look at the cylinder individual"timing retard due to knock" data channels and introduce some retard to the timing table(s).
(If a PVnn device is being used ... which I hope too!)
Especially if your tune started from a 111 S2 tune: The S2 timing came VERY advanced from the beginning!

BEST would be wide band street tuning with a WBCX ... (111 with S3 cams is considered exotic, good but largely "unsupported"!)

Oh ... and yes ... a newly introduced intake leak (air cleaner or intake boots) does screw up the tune especially in the open loop areas!
So get that fixed first before anything else ... (and I just read CraigB did your tune, so he certainly fixed any fuelling and timing issues back then already!)

Sent from my SM-N976Q using Tapatalk

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JOHNNY3FINGERS

Discussion Starter · #9 · 12 d ago (Edited)

Lee-Bro said:
Any chance this sound started w/ the new air cleaner? The reason I ask is that when I went from the stock TS111 a.c. on my '19 SF to the round Stage 1, I wasn't ready for the increased "ticking" sound of the actual intake sucking in the air. At first, I thought it was lifter or some type of head noise that I hadn't noticed before, but it's the actual sound of the intake system. The frequency in which it happens is similar to yours. I'm so accustomed to it now, that I don't really notice it and if I do, I just roll on the throttle a bit more.

Without hearing the sound you're referring to, it's hard to say it's the same thing. But going simple things first, I'd suggest that perhaps you're just hearing the intake system now more than you did w/ the stock a.c. Now, if you had this issue before the mods, then I'll let someone who's mechanically knowledgeable help out w/ ideas.

As a matter of fact I did notice a rattling after the AC install but its become even more pronounced with the exhaust and stg3 cams. Its very concerning and sounds metallic/pinging on cheap gas.

If thats the same sound you hear thats freaking wild. I never in a million would have guessed its a function of the AC.

I think responsibly I should still check the other suspects but thank you for the response.

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Lee-Bro

· #10 · 12 d ago

JOHNNY3FINGERS said:
As a matter of fact I did notice a rattling after the AC install but its become even more pronounced with the exhaust and stg3 cams. Its very concerning and sounds metallic/pinging on cheap gas.

If thats the same sound you hear thats freaking wild. I never in a million would have guessed its a function of the AC.

I think responsibility I should still check the other suspects but thank you for the response.

Next time I ride, I'll mount my Insta360 camera near my intake and get video so you can compare sounds. It'll be Tuesday at the earliest though as I have too much going on in my non-riding life before then to get out and ride.

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JOHNNY3FINGERS

Discussion Starter · #11 · 12 d ago

cmoalem said:
111 with S 3 cams?

I assume you got your bike tuned by somebody! (I strongly hope so!)

From what I understand from your explanations on when the rattle happens and when it stops (at WOT) your transition from closed loop to open loop seems to be pinging yes.

As for the spark plugs: Spark plug reading usually is done on brand new plugs and after controlled/repeatable driving conditions (e.g. on the track).
Yours show the mixed effect of 80% closed loop riding with "some" open loop up to WOT ... over a LOT of kms.

In general the 80% stoich closed loop riding should actually produce a clean white ceramic color, which yours show.
And that is NOT too lean!

What slightly concerns me a bit more is the ash grey long streched pattern on the electrodes as mentioned in the posts before. Some more than usual heat ... with maybe slight pre detonation!
("colder" plugs do NOT help here, and a larger gap certainly neither, especially if you are running the stock dwell table!)

What DOES help here is if your tuner looks at the AFRs in certain areas and goes a bit richer ... and then he needs to look at the cylinder individual"timing retard due to knock" data channels and introduce some retard to the timing table(s).
(If a PVnn device is being used ... which I hope too!)
Especially if your tune started from a 111 S2 tune: The S2 timing came VERY advanced from the beginning!

BEST would be wide band street tuning with a WBCX ... (111 with S3 cams is considered exotic, good but largely "unsupported"!)

Sent from my SM-N976Q using Tapatalk

yes tune by craigb. So its not likely the tune but some other root cause. I do however plan to contact him direct explain my concern and see if he has time to take a look at some logging files from pv3.

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Randall

· #12 · 12 d ago

Howdy @JOHNNY3FINGERS
All of the advice you've been offered here is good. I'll just add that reading the plug color became a lot less reliable when vehicles went from points to electronic ignitions. I used to take points-fired bikes out with a set of new plugs and run at cruising speed with a steady throttle for several miles, kill the ignition, coast to the side of the road, and pull the plugs. You could get a very good read about whether the engine was running rich or lean by the color of the electrodes.

That became a lot less reliable with electronic ignition, which pops a much hotter spark than you get with points as evidenced by plug gaps going from .28" to .40". Electronic ignition plugs normally come out somewhere from light gray to white. If you're getting pinging for sure check for intake leaks.
--- Randall

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SJ12DS

· #13 · 11 d ago

Did your bike always do this or is it a new condition? If it is a new condition then I would lean towards leaking intake boots.

Age of bike? How many miles?

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JOHNNY3FINGERS

Discussion Starter · #14 · 11 d ago

Thanks for the response.

2020
6500 miles.

I have always heard top end noise and some ticks and rattles but I thought that is pretty much standard for an air cooled vtwin.

with this noise Its could be my imagination…seems to have gotten worse in the past month….or I’m just hyper-focused on it because I am tired of hearing it.

I checked the headers today and the bolts are not loose. So thats ruled out. unless new gaskets weren’t used putting on the new headers and its a bad seal but theres not excessive exhaust popping. I think that also rules out mufflers not being torqued and seated.

Outside bike. Kept in a speedway shelter and have a plywood floor but winters are cold, summers hot/humid. Engine runs hot even de-catted. If these boots are “that” susceptible to being brittle and cracking maybe its that but I wont have time until next weekend to look at this further

Skidmore suggested to spray WD40 in and around the boots with the engine idling and if there’s an intake leak the idle will change or surge. So probably try this first.

leebro mentioned it may possibly be a normal frequency of the AC sucking air. Waiting for him to post a video for comparison but its going to be a few days before he's able to get to it.

I appreciate everyone’s replies today super helpful!

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SJ12DS

· #15 · 11 d ago

@JOHNNY3FINGERS

Ok, got it.

I have a 2019 with 17,800 miles on it and my intake boots are fine. My plugs look similar to yours but a little more tan in color. I sprayed my boots and there was no change with idle or any fluctuations so I was able to rule out an intake leak.

So, awhile ago I had a definite pining between 3200-3600 RPMs. I don't lug my engine either. So I logged some data with my PV3 and sent it to FM with a tune update request. They were able to adjust my fuel/timing in that RPM range and I no longer have any pinging whatsoever. Not a bit.

Did you get your PV3 from Fuel Moto? If so, then I would log some data and send it to FM along with a request for an updated tune.

Now, before logging data, make sure you have all your data monitors assigned in the PV3.

I assigned my first 4 data monitors for: Voltage, Engine Speed, Timing Front, Timing rear.

Next 4 were: Eng Temp, IDC Front, IDC Rear, IAT.

Next 4: Knock Rear, Knock Front, IPW Front, IPW Rear.

Last 4: STFT Rear, STFT Front. MAP, Reg AFR.

The PV3 will log more data than the 16 slots, but you will be able to see what is going on while you are logging the data.

CraigB will be able to explain it better than me but IIRC you have to be riding the bike about 5 minutes before logging data due to something with the way the ECU adjust the idle after starting the bike, even when hot.

I know this seem like it is a lot but it really is not. Fuel Moto also has a section on their website all about logging data and the procedure that they want you to follow in order to get the most accurate data.

To log data while riding, you have to press the circle O button on the PV3 and then to stop logging press it again.

This should help determine what is going on with your pinging and also gives FM the data needed to fine tune your tune.

I think it will save you a headache in the long run.

Good Luck!

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SJ12DS

· #16 · 11 d ago (Edited)

On another note, I have the round Air cleaner and the only time I hear any clicking is at idle from the throttle body. After that all I hear is air sucking past the throttle plate.

Also, if you want CraigB to adjust your tune, then you could log data and send it to him for review and adjustment if needed.

I try not to bother him much anymore even though he would probably help me because that is who he is.

I just feel that after his health situation that I don't want to bother him with my troubles.

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Lee-Bro

· #17 · 9 d ago

@JOHNNY3FINGERS - videos are here: The sounds of a Thunderstroke 111 w/ Stage 3 cams (not...

I hate to say it, but I had a hell of a time capturing the sound I'm referring to. I can try again when I have time to dedicate to rigging up an external microphone for the camera.

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Supercharged87

· #18 · 9 d ago

Steve Morris has an excellent video on how to read spark plugs. For anyone interested ...

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therev

· #19 · 8 d ago

Check the header nuts

JOHNNY3FINGERS

Discussion Starter · #20 · 8 d ago

therev said:
Check the header nuts

Header nuts ✅
Muffler clamps ✅
sprayed parts cleaner around manifold boots,AC and throttle body ✅

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