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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Best bet is to know what you are messing with inside the TS111! Connecting rods, valve spring seats and the springs themselves, so far have shown a certain failure rate.
While this base engine has proven itself very robust and dependable, it has also shown us a hint at where the design limits of certain internal parts are being reached... to wit the few 116 engines that lunched their bottom-ends and the Polaris revamp of that kit to include much more robust racing conrods.
In general numbers, this problem started showing itself in the 90 to 100 horsepower range and 11.5 to 1 compression ratios.
Stock 111 horsepower of approx. 70hp = safe (no history of major failures).
Base 116 horsepower 95+ = beginning troubles with failing connecting rods.
I realize this is an oversimplification, but I think you will agree in the overall big picture what seems to be indicated. I think the Polaris engineers came up with this same answer. Push these engines above 100 horsepower and start pushing up the revs, you have a potentially bad recipe in terms of engine reliability and safety.
You buy a Polaris BBK, now you get special valve springs, and importantly, connecting rods that can handle the higher horsepower and vibration stresses.
You buy a higher lift camshaft and throw on a DynoJet tuner - you get the higher horsepower results without the added protection of the better internal parts.
Some of the more technical engineer types might be able to run with this by the numbers... I am a hands-on type of person. I have probably built more than 1,000 engines in my 50 years working on and building engines of various types and sizes - lawn mower all the way up to heavy earth-movers. I have also done a limited amount of work inside some race engines built for high-revs. I have a reasonably good feel and understanding of the parts involved. I have run one of the 116 Indian bikes for over a year and a half now, and just ran one of the cammed and tuned 111s. The vibration levels alone are a concern for both engines approaching 100 horsepower and above. They definitely are no longer the same engines as the original TS111. Consider the strength and design of the stock connecting rod = cross section is approximately a scant 10mm or 3/8". Speculation, I know, but reasonable concern is definitely called for.

111 stock rod 01.jpg
111 stock rod 02.jpg
111 stock rod 03.jpg
 

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Hey, where'd you get pictures of my left hand - I'm gonna need royalties - and clean my cuticles ASAP !

Everything you said is "right on"..
Those looking to get 100+ hp /125+trq need to begin with the 116 kit in order to end up with an engine that "lives"..
Those happy with just under those numbers can keep their 111's and just bolt on a few "known effective" items, a Stage II cam or 558, FM PV3 w ARTS , and DONE !

P.S. Also, clip my nails every chance you get !
 

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Those rods do look wimpy. Seems to me I/P designed the 111 for just what it is, and no to little more. Doesn't seem like the engineers considered that some riders would want to put more tq/hp to the 111.
 

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I am slowly coming to the sad conclusion that any cams other than S2 should not go into a 111. this includes 558 or s3. I am speaking from an engine longevity perspective. we have all known about the limits of the stock conrods for some time. indian engineers know it, too. some might disagree about the 558, but ray's testing shows that it is not a real mild cam after all. I had high hopes of putting in a set of s3's in my 2019 cdh, but have decided that only a BBK will give peace of mind (paired with pv3 of course ). ymmv
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I believe they finally settled on 11 1/2 to 1 for the 116 Pistons. That is certainly one of the stress factors, but the much higher vibration levels are also significant for rod stresses as they have been proven to the detriment of the stock valve springs as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Now, from a practical perspective, the Carrillo rods will resolve the concern over that stress point, and high-lift springs will handle the more aggressive cams. If you have a 2019 year model you already have the valve springs plus the 60mm intake manifold. To my viewpoint, the very pricey Polaris BBK is not looking too bad after all. Time will tell.
 

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Minor correction, I believe. 2019's have bigger intake manifold, same TB as prior year (54). The 116 kit for 2019 and up includes a bigger TB.
 

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Safe to go with Wood WI-555 cams, or just be happy with a Bassani True Dual and VooDoo intake on a 2016 Chieftain?

I have seen the Carrillo connecting rods for the 116, very nice piece, too bad they are not installed in the stock TS111!

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Discussion Starter #10
Minor correction, I believe. 2019's have bigger intake manifold, same TB as prior year (54). The 116 kit for 2019 and up includes a bigger TB.
Thanks! You are correct - manifold not tb. The 60 mm tb is a very inexpensive part though (under $100).
 

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I wonder if it is as simple as that? I'm the first to admit, I have limited technical knowledge on this subject. I also have seen a read about the failures. I wonder if this is the norm or a select few? The failure rates do not seem that high but maybe that is me and we are only seeing a small percentage of the failures on the forum.

Part of what drives my questioning is I have Andrews 570 cams/VP60/Lloyds exhaust and my bike dyno'd at 107HP/132trq. That was 11,000 miles ago. I ride pretty hard. So far, I have had no issues. Am I sitting on a ticking time bomb?
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Failure rates, small ones, certainly do not indicate that many will follow suit. However, catastrophic failures are to be avoided completely if possible.
 

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Lloydz sells Carrillos. At a premium.

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According to this thread, Indian contracted with Carrillo to make the rods for the 116 kit. Though, they do look different than the ones Lloyd sells. I wonder how much hp the stage 3 rods are good for?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Is there a lot more vibration on a 116? Enough to be a deal breaker if you still want a smooth ride?
My experience with the 116 is a harsh ride in comparison with the 111. That means high vibration levels. I felt the same thing from the kitted 111 the other day. Some others have called theirs smooth, probably individual cases and a matter of tuning and balance in that individual engine.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
According to this thread, Indian contracted with Carrillo to make the rods for the 116 kit. Though, they do look different than the ones Lloyd sells. I wonder how much hp the stage 3 rods are good for?
Wayyyy more than those tiny stockers!
 

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I love reading this stuff... I have a stock 111 and probably will keep it that way... but what do you think and or why would Indian go to high flow heads in 2020? will it help you power hungry dudes at all?
 
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