Indian Motorcycle Forum banner
  • Hey everyone! Enter your ride HERE to be a part of JULY's Ride of the Month Challenge!
61 - 80 of 132 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
332 Posts
Discussion Starter · #61 ·
I've learned to deal with it. I have found that if I keep the RPM's up higher, I have less issue (especially when blipping to downshift). Below about 2400 RPM, a blip does nothing (i.e twist but nothing happens). So, my solution has just been to downshift at higher RPM and let the clutch out a bit slower.

I don't feel nearly as "connected" to this bike as I did my Scout, but we're talking about a much larger engine with much more mechanical inertia, so we can't expect it to respond like a sportbike.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,249 Posts
I have read that with most electronic control systems, there is redundancy built into a fly-by-wire systems. Instead of just one demand sensor for the handlebar throttle control, there are two. Same thing goes with the feedback sensor aligned to communicate with the throttle body (or bodies) in the Challengers case which are mechanically aligned or linked together to work in some set measure of unison. This is created to avoid or prevent possible loss of control should one sensor ever fail. The complex nature of this system with its variety of potentiometers, computers, sensors and management systems is what results sometimes in a noticeable delay when you first turn the throttle at the handlebar control, known as throttle lag or "the dead zone".

On the Challenger, the throttle bodies are mechanically linked and aligned to work in unison when a command is sent. The command starts from up at the handlebar throttle control (as it is turned/twisted and how fast or slow it is moved at the same time in measure) hand grip by the rider. When this physical action is made, the command is sent fly-by-wire to the ECU that initiates interpetation of the throttle positon regulated by a throttle position sensor and checked by the feedback sensor in communication as to where the throttle body action and position is to be upon the command. When throttle lag or a dead zone happens, this could be interpeted by the ECU system that an adjustment is necessary to complete or actuate for the command or lack of. This failsafe sequence could be in part the reason or the reaction as to why in more server cases of lag, the ECU electrical system shuts down (powers off) causing the engine to stop running, thus causing the bike to then "stall".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
433 Posts
Have been working with electronic engines since the late 80's,when it was introduced in the heavy duty diesel and CNG engines.We have used several systems that both verify the throttle is commanded and in gas that the butterfly is in the proper position.Any glitches in either system causes the fueling or butterfly to go to an idle mode as a system safety to prevent a runaway or out of control vehicle.I believe what is happening here is the super tight EPA mandates aren't allowing the throttle to respond until you are out of the emissions gray area. Hopefully Dynojet cracks these ECU's which will eliminate the problems.Having a FTR I have been down this road and the last revisions to Dynojets map finally made the bike run as it should have from the factory.The EPA has made everyone's life harder in the trade.
 

·
Bronze member
Joined
·
1,199 Posts
I'm curious if those having throttle lag are all earlier 2020 production bikes? Everything 'I've read, from multiple sources, point the finger to throttle bodies not being in synch.

If later 2020 & current 2021 models aren't experiencing this lag then the ECU learning curve theory doesn't carry as much weight.

What are the consensus thoughts on the above logic?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
332 Posts
Discussion Starter · #65 ·
My bike was made on 05/2020.
2 dealers have told me that the throttle body sync did not apply to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
576 Posts
I'm curious if those having throttle lag are all earlier 2020 production bikes? Everything 'I've read, from multiple sources, point the finger to throttle bodies not being in synch.

If later 2020 & current 2021 models aren't experiencing this lag then the ECU learning curve theory doesn't carry as much weight.

What are the consensus thoughts on the above logic?
I've got one from the very first batch and never had any of these problems mentioned. The bike does break in slowly and gets faster and smoother with miles. Ive had every recall check and everything was in spec. An experienced mechanic helps. Indian dealers do not have a good reputation in general of consistantly having qualified mechanics for their diverse line of products. The Challenger is an all new design with technology
That doesn't follow tradition mechanics. It uses electronic technology that exceeds other bikes in the bagger class. If anyone has problems that they think are inherent to the design or unfixable, go to another dealer, make an appointment, but ask if they have a mechanic that has a lot of Challenger experience and take to the tech before bringing in the bike, and ask for that tech specifically! Also, the sales guy should let you know who the best tech is and wait for his available slot. A new guy they got from an old Harley shop that is used to working on old twin cams is going to take a lot of "unlearning" to get with the program in many cases.
 

·
Rider
Joined
·
1,262 Posts
go to another dealer, make an appointment, but ask if they have a mechanic that has a lot of Challenger experience and take to the tech before bringing in the bike, and ask for that tech specifically!
Ask if they have a "Certified Gold" mechanic. It is the highest rating from Indian. Dealers have to send their techs out to headquarters for a week or more to attend and pass certification. Indian of Orange County has 2.

Also, the sales guy should let you know who the best tech is and wait for his available slot.
Don't talk to sales people about mechanics and mechanical issues with your bike. You will get the best info when talking to people in the service department and even better from the service manager directly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
576 Posts
Ask if they have a "Certified Gold" mechanic. It is the highest rating from Indian. Dealers have to send their techs out to headquarters for a week or more to attend and pass certification. Indian of Orange County has 2.



Don't talk to sales people about mechanics and mechanical issues with your bike. You will get the best info when talking to people in the service department and even better from the service manager directly.
I disagree. If you ask the sales guy who their best mechanic is, they will usually tell you who is most experienced. The service manager will typically tell you they are all good because his job is to fill the schedule, even if it means using the guy who started last week. Especially if they are working for a "CHAIN" dealership like Ride Now or Moretti.
 

·
Rider
Joined
·
1,262 Posts
I disagree. If you ask the sales guy who their best mechanic is, they will usually tell you who is most experienced. The service manager will typically tell you they are all good because his job is to fill the schedule, even if it means using the guy who started last week. Especially if they are working for a "CHAIN" dealership like Ride Now or Moretti.
Sales staff are disconnected from the service department. Often times they don't even know the correct parts and accessories or the correct services for the bike they are selling you. They have not worked closely with the mechanics to know which one is best. Often times sales staff aren't even allowed in the service bays. Your service manager should be up front with you about who their most experienced tech is and if they are bronze, silver or gold certified. The techs at Indian have their Gold Certified patches on the sleeves of their shirts. Easy to spot them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
576 Posts
The place where I bought my bike is and Indian and a Harley dealership. My sales guy knew specifically who to make an appointment with in service. They are 300 miles away. I make an appointment for a Saturday morning with the guy my salesman specifically told me is the best mechanic for the Challenger. Guess what? 18000 miles with zero issues. During one of the Covid periods, I was forced to get service at the Ride Now dealership 10 minutes from my house. The first guy over tightened my belt and it squeaks, put 1/2 quart too little oil in the bike, and forgot to order a new front tire, just the back. They got the Ducati mechanic in their adjoining building to do the rest of the work. They go through mechanics and sales people often. The place I travel to has the same people year after year. Before my 2 last Indians I had Harleys. Whenever I had a detailed service or modification needed, I specified a very specific mechanic. The one who races and has been there for over 15 years. My salesman recommended I request him as he can trouble shoot anything. I had 2 adve ture bikes, a KTM 1290 SAR and a Triumph Tiger, which I bought 240 miles away from home instead of the one 20 minutes from my house and 10 minutes away. (2 different local dealers). The sales guy said they have a top notch mechanic there. He installed some trick parts, did an initial service on the Triumph and I had the KTM worked on by Rottweiler Performance. Both my local dealers were incompetent, expensive and unaccommodating when it came to buying a bike and doing service. I try to get to know my sales people before I buy. Most places, they are no better than car lot salesmen. I don't patronage those places. Different strokes for different folks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Indian has a very specific Throttle Learn Procedure in its service manual. It requires an ECU flash as part of the procedure. This may well solve the throttle problem people are having.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Nice day out today so took a visit to my local dealer since my throttle lags in all modes. I now have almost 1500 miles on it, so it should be broken in. The throttle lag wasn’t really a big deal until today. Decided to take a twisty road home and it has two steep curves back to back. Downshifted, got in the corner, hit the throttle on the other side and nothing. Almost dumped it. I got lucky and nothing was coming the other way, so was able to stand it back up, into the other lane and then the rpms went back up. Dealer said they never heard of the lag, but another Challenger owner was there and said his does it too in all modes.
Just test rode 21 Challenger and Chieftain. Both had the same issue regardless of ride mode. It's dangerous really. I think it is a deal breaker for me unless someone knows how to correct it??? It's an extremely vague throttle...agghh
 

·
Rider
Joined
·
566 Posts
Indian has a very specific Throttle Learn Procedure in its service manual. It requires an ECU flash as part of the procedure. This may well solve the throttle problem people are having.
Throttle learn procedure? Any references for that? Like chapters/pg numbers? I have both the owners and service manual. Never heard of a throttle learn procedure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
247 Posts
Throttle learn procedure? Any references for that? Like chapters/pg numbers? I have both the owners and service manual. Never heard of a throttle learn procedure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My service Tech did mine when I got them out of synch.
 

·
Founding member / Distinguished
Joined
·
5,582 Posts
I'll have to search for my owners manual. I suspect it's hidden in a saddlebag lid as it wasn't down in either saddlebag. I need to know more about my new Challenger.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
308 Posts
Page 4.67 of shop manual...not owners manual
 
  • Like
Reactions: mdrambler
61 - 80 of 132 Posts
Top