Indian Motorcycle Forum banner
  • Hey everyone! Enter your ride HERE to be a part of JULY's Ride of the Month Challenge!
1 - 20 of 38 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys , will a 2017 roadmaster set of stock injectors work with a 2016 chieftain? Got the larger injectors with engine upgrades, but did not get my stock ones back after upgrades, I think they are to much for my setup = the larger injectors from lloydz. Any info appreciated.
 

·
Registered
17’ Chieftain DH
Joined
·
217 Posts
They should work, what did you get for upgrades? More then likely you don’t need em if you just went with cams and such.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
They should work, what did you get for upgrades? More then likely you don’t need em if you just went with cams and such.
Mine has all the 121 big bore parts, just a little bigger bore, Venom plenum, 60 mm throttle body, valve spring upgrades, 585's cams, currently freedom headers with V&H 4 inch turn downs packing removed, carillo rods, crank balanced, little bigger local made pistons, have dynoed 3 times and moved up to hotter plugs , but still way to rich, I am thinking of putting stock injectors back in re dyno, or put rinehart slimline with pc5 auto tune and map switch,. but going cheapest route 1st = putting stock injectors back in, set on ebay for a 2017 roadmaster, just wanted to make sure they are compatible
with the 2016 chieftain ?? Always getting code showing cylinder misfire, and very rich for sure, actually will go into limp mode occasionally due to richness. have checked all plug wires , injector wires etc to make sure there are no shorts or electrical gremlins, did have to cut a section out of seat pan as it was rubbing harness on the ECM.
 

·
Silver member
Joined
·
4,681 Posts
Mine has all the 121 big bore parts, just a little bigger bore, Venom plenum, 60 mm throttle body, valve spring upgrades, 585's cams, currently freedom headers with V&H 4 inch turn downs packing removed, carillo rods, crank balanced, little bigger local made pistons, have dynoed 3 times and moved up to hotter plugs , but still way to rich, I am thinking of putting stock injectors back in re dyno, or put rinehart slimline with pc5 auto tune and map switch,. but going cheapest route 1st = putting stock injectors back in, set on ebay for a 2017 roadmaster, just wanted to make sure they are compatible
with the 2016 chieftain ?? Always getting code showing cylinder misfire, and very rich for sure, actually will go into limp mode occasionally due to richness. have checked all plug wires , injector wires etc to make sure there are no shorts or electrical gremlins, did have to cut a section out of seat pan as it was rubbing harness on the ECM.
Stock injectors are marginal for your setup. You would be better with 350cc. Stock is 280cc and Lloyd'z provides 450cc (36 lb/hr), which is what you have. However I built a tune for a 120 stroker engine (TS111 Indian) with 450cc injectors and it idles really nice and at WOT has a 60% DC IIRC. So your 450CC one's are fine.

So you are running in close-loop with the PCV? (not bypassing the o2 sensors)?

Code mis-fires is pretty common, there are settings to help in the ECU itself, but you do not have access to that with the PCV, only with the flash tuner PV3.


Edit: to your original question, yes they will work (same injectors for 2016 and 2017)...but I would not use them.
 

·
Bronze member
Joined
·
2,802 Posts
Oh this is going to be interesting...

Do you realize that you are talking about putting undersized injectors into your monster motor in order to try to get leaner AFR values ?

Yep, this is going to be interesting..


Unless, of course, you enlist Craig to properly program your ME17 with the Lloydz injector specifications so that it will be able to operate them correctly (and stop flooding your engine) - Probably outta then have him work up a tune for you.. BTW, ever heard of fuel wash..?
 

·
Silver member
Joined
·
5,505 Posts
Yeah, replacing the injectors for ones with a different flow rate sounds like a bad idea unless you remap your ecu accordingly...
 

·
Bronze member
Joined
·
2,802 Posts
Yeah, replacing the injectors for ones with a different flow rate sounds like a bad idea unless you remap your ecu accordingly...
A few pesky little ECM data fields to re-value - like Injector scaling, voltage latency's, etc... lol

Seriously though, on builds like OneOff's (a Thunderstroke build) , the most critical aspect has nothing to do with bolting on stuff, but on who and what is going to be used to properly tune the thing.. Usually, as here, the tuning aspect of the build was not actually workable/viable, and becomes a huge problem (at the end of the build) threatening everything the build sought to accomplish...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
A few pesky little ECM data fields to re-value - like Injector scaling, voltage latency's, etc... lol

Seriously though, on builds like OneOff's (a Thunderstroke build) , the most critical aspect has nothing to do with bolting on stuff, but on who and what is going to be used to properly tune the thing.. Usually, as here, the tuning aspect of the build was not actually workable/viable, and becomes a huge problem (at the end of the build) threatening everything the build sought to accomplish...
I agree , unfortunately in the middle of my build, the main mechanic at local dealer went to another dealer, so the confusion began, From what you and Craig are telling me on the tune factor and fuel wash factor which is real, Do you guys think doing the slim line header, with wideband, and auto tune with switch and craig's tuning will do the trick? Had it close , but local dyno man re adjusted AFR etc, to richer values, no one around here is that familiar with the Indians, I will keep the lloydz injectors based on the input you guys provided, Unfortunately do not associate with local Indian dealer for various reasons, but remote tune with slimline , header 18 mm bungs wideband and auto tune for PCV , with possible map switch , sounds like the way to go? Also the most expensive lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Stock injectors are marginal for your setup. You would be better with 350cc. Stock is 280cc and Lloyd'z provides 450cc (36 lb/hr), which is what you have. However I built a tune for a 120 stroker engine (TS111 Indian) with 450cc injectors and it idles really nice and at WOT has a 60% DC IIRC. So your 450CC one's are fine.

So you are running in close-loop with the PCV? (not bypassing the o2 sensors)?

Code mis-fires is pretty common, there are settings to help in the ECU itself, but you do not have access to that with the PCV, only with the flash tuner PV3.


Edit: to your original question, yes they will work (same injectors for 2016 and 2017)...but I would not use them.
Yes CraigB1960 cureently closed loop with PCV, Should I go open loop, or as you suggested before , add the slimline header, wideband, with possibly autotune and map switch?
 

·
Bronze member
Joined
·
2,802 Posts
You do what we (on planet Earth) all do... Which is anything @CraigB1960 tells you to do.. End of story..


As a point of fact, Craig and Cmoalem used the "PCV w Autotune" junk years ago when that crap was all we had..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
You do what we (on planet Earth) all do... Which is anything @CraigB1960 tells you to do.. End of story..


As a point of fact, Craig and Cmoalem used the "PCV w Autotune" junk years ago when that crap was all we had..
How hard would it be to uninstall the PCV and instal the PV3 , I am pretty sure I can take the freedom headers off and replace with the Rinehart slimline, myself, would also want to instal the wideband tuning for PV3 to the 18 mm bungs, and how do you block the 12mm bungs? Craig suggested this was my best setup, but this looks like another 1700.00 or so before the cost of remote tuning
kicks in.
 

·
Bronze member
Joined
·
2,802 Posts
Yep, $1700 sounds about right..

This is what it'll take to salvage your current build - assuming you have no PV3 capable tuning shop near you or you are not willing to trailer it to Wisconsin (where most all the competent PV3 tuning shops are..) Craig can save your a$$, but it's gonna be expensive - as it would be for anyone creating such a monster motor.. Peeps should know the major expense of "buttoning up" a one-off Thunderstroke build.. (the tuning costs) ..

It would behoove anyone else thinking of doing a one-off build, to consider that if the above "shop PV3 tune" option is not available (which it is not to most all of us in the USA), one has to have 18mm bungs added to their header OR purchase the Rhinehart Header (which has both 12's and 18's - OneOff). A Fuel Moto PV3, WBCX, and the Fuel Moto Remote Tuning Service is also mandatory .. If planning for over ~ 105 hp (and you certainly should be with a one-off build), larger injectors are mandatory.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OneOff

·
Silver member
Joined
·
4,681 Posts
The 12mm bungs on the Rhinehart should already have the screw in block-offs. But, you will never get your bike tuned without the WBCX. You have spent a ton of money building a one-off engine, I am sure putting out $500 or more per lousy dyno tune session. Performance cost money and good performance cost more. This is the path you choose.

There will be no PV3 tune available for you engine. It will have to be built from the ground up. Then it will have to be tested in baby steps with you recording data with the PV3 to make sure the engine is operating in the safe region. Once all that has been ironed out, then we start tuning the overall operating range. To do it right, it is a lot of effort. At the price of $300 for Advance Remote Tuning Service, I am the one taking the hit, from a time and headache point of view.

So the path to a good running engine is to get your exhaust right, get the PV3 and WBCX kit, take off the PC-V, and sign up for the ARTS (or find a competent tuner that is willing to take this project on, more $$$).

The PC-V is easy to take off. You have to be able to get to your injector wires, just unbolt and raise your take up and remove the PC-V and all the other wires associated with it. Then reconnect your OEM injector connectors to the injectors. Installing the WBCX is plugged into the diagnostic port below the fuse box on the left side pane, then the pV3 is plugged into the WBCX. I mounted my PV3 to my handle bars and ran the cable in the wire tunnel under the tank. The o2 sensor wires are wired up to the WBCX (hardest part of this installation since the connectors on the WBCX are real small). Then you screw in the Wideband sensors, connect to the WBCX, and you are ready to go. (You keep the narrowband sensors installed and make sure there are no bypass connectors installed).

This is money not thrown away, I run my Widebands at all times so I can observe while riding that my engine is performing as expected. You also have a lot of useful information displayed on the PV3....engine temperature, MPH, RPM, Short and Long Term Fuel Trims, MAP, AFR 1 & 2, etc.

When you are done, you will have a setup that is solid and performing well.

I wish it was free or cheap solution, but you have a one-off engine that should have been built and tuned by an engine builder and not a dealer.
 

·
Silver member
Joined
·
4,681 Posts
Seriously though, on builds like OneOff's (a Thunderstroke build) , the most critical aspect has nothing to do with bolting on stuff, but on who and what is going to be used to properly tune the thing.. Usually, as here, the tuning aspect of the build was not actually workable/viable, and becomes a huge problem (at the end of the build) threatening everything the build sought to accomplish...
Exactly! ....but tuning is usually an afterthought and most folks think the tune can cure bad builds or component selection.

This is why folks like Jamie, Jeff Tudor, T-Man, Baisley, AMS, etc produce really good engines and components. They have tunes that are matched to their engine builds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The 12mm bungs on the Rhinehart should already have the screw in block-offs. But, you will never get your bike tuned without the WBCX. You have spent a ton of money building a one-off engine, I am sure putting out $500 or more per lousy dyno tune session. Performance cost money and good performance cost more. This is the path you choose.

There will be no PV3 tune available for you engine. It will have to be built from the ground up. Then it will have to be tested in baby steps with you recording data with the PV3 to make sure the engine is operating in the safe region. Once all that has been ironed out, then we start tuning the overall operating range. To do it right, it is a lot of effort. At the price of $300 for Advance Remote Tuning Service, I am the one taking the hit, from a time and headache point of view.

So the path to a good running engine is to get your exhaust right, get the PV3 and WBCX kit, take off the PC-V, and sign up for the ARTS (or find a competent tuner that is willing to take this project on, more $$$).

The PC-V is easy to take off. You have to be able to get to your injector wires, just unbolt and raise your take up and remove the PC-V and all the other wires associated with it. Then reconnect your OEM injector connectors to the injectors. Installing the WBCX is plugged into the diagnostic port below the fuse box on the left side pane, then the pV3 is plugged into the WBCX. I mounted my PV3 to my handle bars and ran the cable in the wire tunnel under the tank. The o2 sensor wires are wired up to the WBCX (hardest part of this installation since the connectors on the WBCX are real small). Then you screw in the Wideband sensors, connect to the WBCX, and you are ready to go. (You keep the narrowband sensors installed and make sure there are no bypass connectors installed).

This is money not thrown away, I run my Widebands at all times so I can observe while riding that my engine is performing as expected. You also have a lot of useful information displayed on the PV3....engine temperature, MPH, RPM, Short and Long Term Fuel Trims, MAP, AFR 1 & 2, etc.

When you are done, you will have a setup that is solid and performing well.

I wish it was free or cheap solution, but you have a one-off engine that should have been built and tuned by an engine builder and not a dealer.
I am ready to get this done Craig, so your saying for 300.00 you will do the needed remote tuning? Also when I get everything installed and running will bike be ok to run to log data with the setup you have recommended, before the actual remote tune starts? and does each remote tune cost 300 or is that for a final map? I have the rinehart slimline header, the PV3 and the wideband tuner setup in my wishlist cart via FuelMotto, hopefully header gaskets comes with the header? Gonna pull the trigger on purchase this week, main concern will bike run ok without a major failure on initial rides to log info , before the remote tuning starts?
 

·
Silver member
Joined
·
4,681 Posts
I am ready to get this done Craig, so your saying for 300.00 you will do the needed remote tuning? Also when I get everything installed and running will bike be ok to run to log data with the setup you have recommended, before the actual remote tune starts? and does each remote tune cost 300 or is that for a final map? I have the rinehart slimline header, the PV3 and the wideband tuner setup in my wishlist cart via FuelMotto, hopefully header gaskets comes with the header? Gonna pull the trigger on purchase this week, main concern will bike run ok without a major failure on initial rides to log info , before the remote tuning starts?
You should add the ARTS to the cart. When you sign-up for ARTS, I require the factory STK calibration to be sent to me so I can build your initial tune to start with. You retrieve this by connecting the PV3 to the diagnostic port and doing a READ ECU (instructions with the PV3 walk you through it). I will build you a starting tune based on your build, which we will discuss. You will start your engine and record data while it is warming up. Send that to me so I can view if we are in the ball-park. I make revisions, send it to you and we repeat until we get a finished tune for you.

It typically takes10 cycles of riding and revising to get to an end product, but in your case, it will take more. Think of each cycle as a dyno pull. But not going into more detail here, you will get the hang of it when we start. The service is $300, no additional costs. Once we get the finished tune, we are done.

The whole point here is to get you a solid base tune that we will then build on to get your engine running its very best. Now if there is an hardware problem (intake leak, exhaust leak, etc) that will have to be dealt with as we go.

The Rhinehart headers come with the exhaust gaskets.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
You should add the ARTS to the cart. When you sign-up for ARTS, I require the factory STK calibration to be sent to me so I can build your initial tune to start with. You retrieve this by connecting the PV3 to the diagnostic port and doing a READ ECU (instructions with the PV3 walk you through it). I will build you a starting tune based on your build, which we will discuss. You will start your engine and record data while it is warming up. Send that to me so I can view if we are in the ball-park. I make revisions, send it to you and we repeat until we get a finished tune for you.

It typically takes10 cycles of riding and revising to get to an end product, but in your case, it will take more. Think of each cycle as a dyno pull. But not going into more detail here, you will get the hang of it when we start. The service is $300, no additional costs. Once we get the finished tune, we are done.

The whole point here is to get you a solid base tune that we will then build on to get your engine running its very best. Now if there is an hardware problem (intake leak, exhaust leak, etc) that will have to be dealt with as we go.

The Rhinehart headers come with the exhaust gaskets.
Thank you Craig , will add the ARTS to cart, and make the order tomorrow, may get local shop to do the instal of all items rather than me possibly screwing something up, /
they are a dynojet dyno shop. after everything is installed , I will have them do the initial download of the stock / factory parameters stk . I do have a stk. present map from last dyno via PcV. May be a few weeks to a month before I can actually send you my 1st ARTS, does this have a time sensitive expiration for that service?
 

·
Silver member
Joined
·
4,681 Posts
Thank you Craig , will add the ARTS to cart, and make the order tomorrow, may get local shop to do the instal of all items rather than me possibly screwing something up, /
they are a dynojet dyno shop. after everything is installed , I will have them do the initial download of the stock / factory parameters stk . I do have a stk. present map from last dyno via PcV. May be a few weeks to a month before I can actually send you my 1st ARTS, does this have a time sensitive expiration for that service?
Perfect, just do not let them start it with the factory calibration.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Perfect, just do not let them start it with the factory calibration.
can they use the PCV map they made to start it or just download the stock map from ecu, If they can't start it and bike has to sit at their shop they charge daily storage fee
 
1 - 20 of 38 Posts
Top