[Ace22]

I had my original starter replaced in 2018, and now acting like it did before. Granted, I now have the 116 BBK and have also read the threads about difficulties starting. My question is, if my starter needs replaced, what are my options?

Is there a newer starter part number for 2019 and above? I checked Indianonly website, but seems like the site doesn’t show the details properly and seems questionable.

Any input/suggestions are appreciated.

 

[Riviera1973]

The part # on the 2020 starter is different than 2019 back, I think the 2020 starter may of been updated to start the new 116 because it comes standard with 116 , but I'm not sure and I haven't had any luck getting information.
The starter is actually really easy to replace and I bought it off of Amazon for less than half the price of one from the Indian dealer, it turned out the starter is made by Lucas and its the identical part the Indian dealer sells, JP cycles etc sells the starter and if you do a Google search with the part # a bunch come up.
I was told to put the bike in 2nd gear and rock it back slighly by my dealer and another member of a Facebook group for Indian motorcycles, what it does is rotate the engine backwards slighly and moves the pistons off the compression stroke, the 116 kit and additional compression is more than likely why your starter bugs down when trying to start your bike, it's a very common issue.
Long story short my bike starts every single time without bogging the starter down when hitting the compression stroke, the compression releases on the cams are not always effective and this I believe is the answer to your problem. If you dont do this I'd say 50-60% of the time starting the bike the starter is going to bog down eventually it will kill your starter motor
This is the solution so far, if there was say a higher torque starter which there is not atleast at this point it could cause failure in the starter drive gears or over running clutch, rolling it back in 2nd gear is the way to go

 

[Black2016RMrider]

A recent post on starters by Indian V-Twin Performance:
If you are talking about making the engine spin backwards this is not a good idea. Rocking forward is okay.
Motorcycles starters use brushes. The starter brushes wear directionally and this creates a leading/trailing edge.
Rocking backwards engages the starter one-way/sprag clutch forcing the starter to spin/rotate backwards.
This can chip or break the brushes and possibly destroy the starter.
Been wrenching for over 40 yrs and was taught to remove the starter if you had to rotate an engine backwards for any reason.

 

[Riviera1973]

A recent post on starters by Indian V-Twin Performance:
If you are talking about making the engine spin backwards this is not a good idea. Rocking forward is okay.
Motorcycles starters use brushes. The starter brushes wear directionally and this creates a leading/trailing edge.
Rocking backwards engages the starter one-way/sprag clutch forcing the starter to spin/rotate backwards.
This can chip or break the brushes and possibly destroy the starter.
Been wrenching for over 40 yrs and was taught to remove the starter if you had to rotate an engine backwards for any reason.

Power window motors run backwards, washer pump motors run backwards to spray the front or rear on a Chrysler minivan by reversing polarity, drills run in reverse, ceiling fans, lots of motors run backwards and mind you when the motor is moved backwards it's very little, I can name more motors that run backwards if you'd like

 

[Black2016RMrider]

Don’t shoot the messenger, I’m just sharing some information posted by a friend who’s been a motorcycle mechanic for over 40 years.

 

[Riviera1973]

Our power windshield motors run up and down for our Roadmasters and Chieftains windshields, no broken brushes, nope not shooting the messenger and I'm still a automobile technician for just as long as your buddy, I ran this across a few friends of mine who are also technicians and they disagree as well, not everyone knows everything including me, but you can't deny the facts that I have shown you

 

[Riviera1973]

If you have an electric motor and you reverse the polarity it will run in reverse, many pieces of equipment do this, automobiles, industrial, home

 

[Riviera1973]

The garage door at work has a motor on it with a belt, it runs up and down all day, goes one way of rotation to open it and the other way to close, it was probably 30 years old and they came out and rebuilt the motor, new brushes, turned the armature, new bushings in the motor etc, painted it- perfect example

 

[Zoidberg]

If I understand right, rock backwards in gear to reposition the piston.
Ok.
But how is the starter turn direction involved at this part?
The starter will chime in when you push the button AFTER you are done turning the engine backward - and does his job in his standard direction.
Right? Or do I miss something?

 

[Buick455]

If I understand right, rock backwards in gear to reposition the piston.
Ok.
But how is the starter turn direction involved at this part?
The starter will chime in when you push the button AFTER you are done turning the engine backward - and does his job in his standard direction.
Right? Or do I miss something?

Your exacly right your just moving the engine slightly, most engines when shut off come to a stop when they start to approach the compression stroke, moving the engine back slightly allows the starter to overcome the compression stroke hence no starter bog down issue.

 

[Buick455]

the starter is moved when the bike is in gear when moving the bike backwards in reverse because there is a over running clutch inside the engine, starter motor gears, going forward the clutch is disengaged otherwise the starter motor would spin all the time with the engine running and it would ruin the starter motor

 

[Ace22]

So, if I understand this correctly...it is best to move backwards just a bit prior to starting?

 

[Axxehead]

If you haven't found a stronger heavy duty starter yet and you want to swap out your original starter you could go with this-

New 12 Volt Starter Fits Indian Chief Classic Chief Vintage Chieftan with 111ci

www.discountstarterandalternator.com

Got a good report from another 111 owner. For $93 it's a good option vs the $400 oem version.

 

[Buick455]

So, if I understand this correctly...it is best to move backwards just a bit prior to starting?

It helps

 

[theMucker]

The starter engages the engine with a sprag clutch. It allows the starter to DRIVE the engine when you power the starter. Once the engine starts, the sprag clutch "freewheels". It's a very simple type of clutch that simply engages only when the torque comes from a particular direction. In this case, when the starter applies the torque to the engine, the clutch "locks". If the engine is spun backwards, it WILL engage the sprag clutch and spin the starter backwards as well. That's NOT good for the starter's brushes.
Whether of not the transmission is in gear has NO EFFECT on the starter and sprag clutch's functions. Some gents have talked about a bendix being part of the design. It is not. ALL the gear-sets inside the engine & transmission are engaged ALL OF THE TIME, including those between the starter and the crankshaft. Each gear-set is COUPLED or DECOUPLED, as required, by use of a clutch or (in the case of the transmission) dog rings.

Sprag clutch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Buick455]

The starter engages the engine with a sprag clutch. It allows the starter to DRIVE the engine when you power the starter. Once the engine starts, the sprag clutch "freewheels". It's a very simple type of clutch that simply engages only when the torque comes from a particular direction. In this case, when the starter applies the torque to the engine, the clutch "locks". If the engine is spun backwards, it WILL engage the sprag clutch and spin the starter backwards as well. That's NOT good for the starter's brushes.
Whether of not the transmission is in gear has NO EFFECT on the starter and sprag clutch's functions. Some gents have talked about a bendix being part of the design. It is not. ALL the gear-sets inside the engine & transmission are engaged ALL OF THE TIME, including those between the starter and the crankshaft. Each gear-set is COUPLED or DECOUPLED, as required, by use of a clutch or (in the case of the transmission) dog rings.

Sprag clutch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sounds like you know a lot, thanks for the h e lp

The starter engages the engine with a sprag clutch. It allows the starter to DRIVE the engine when you power the starter. Once the engine starts, the sprag clutch "freewheels". It's a very simple type of clutch that simply engages only when the torque comes from a particular direction. In this case, when the starter applies the torque to the engine, the clutch "locks". If the engine is spun backwards, it WILL engage the sprag clutch and spin the starter backwards as well. That's NOT good for the starter's brushes.
Whether of not the transmission is in gear has NO EFFECT on the starter and sprag clutch's functions. Some gents have talked about a bendix being part of the design. It is not. ALL the gear-sets inside the engine & transmission are engaged ALL OF THE TIME, including those between the starter and the crankshaft. Each gear-set is COUPLED or DECOUPLED, as required, by use of a clutch or (in the case of the transmission) dog rings.

Sprag clutch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sounds like you know everything, thank you for clearing it all up

 

[theMucker]

Sounds like you know a lot, thanks for the help. Sounds like you know everything, thank you for clearing it all up

Far from everything, Buick. But I've got a few decades of experience at this stuff and, IMHO, you can't be a good wrench of you don't know how it works.

 

[Ace22]

Opening up an old post...anyone yet find a heavy duty starter for the 116 or 111?

 

[Buick455]

I had my original starter replaced in 2018, and now acting like it did before. Granted, I now have the 116 BBK and have also read the threads about difficulties starting. My question is, if my starter needs replaced, what are my options?

Is there a newer starter part number for 2019 and above? I checked Indianonly website, but seems like the site doesn’t show the details properly and seems questionable.

Any input/suggestions are appreciated.

With mine its been a ongoing problem, the 116 is hard on starters and it may require them to replaced more often

 

[Davetac1]

Just incase anyone is interested:Shortly after buying this machine,I too had alittle problem with the starter and decided to pull it out,take it apart,and investigate what the problem was.What I found was,the lower right hand brush,5 o'clock position as you're looking at the starter mounted in the bike,was getting over heated from the engine heat.So after fixing the starter brush,then looking at the position it was mounted in on the motor,I noticed alittle space between the starter and the engine block.So what I did,as an experiment,was cut a small piece of asbestos and insert it into that little space in hopes of keeping the obsessive heat away from that starter brush,and it appears to have worked as I did this almost 40,000 miles ago and that problem has not repeated itself since.

Now in the cold weather,temps in the 30's or lower,the starter would still crank over slow when the motor was cold and or had set for a period of time outside in the cold temps.So what I did then,and this was not my idea but another gentlemans' idea,was place a small space heater in front of it resting the heater on the floor board and aiming it at that area on the starter,and after 8 or ten minutes,she'd crank over almost as good as if it was a summers' day.So there's something you might wanna take a look at which may or maynot solve your problem.All I can say is,these two ideas solved my problems.Good luck!! Dave!!!