Indian Motorcycle Forum banner

STARTER ISSUE?

1713 38
Wondering if any of you Challenger owners have experienced this and if so, did it culminate in a replaced starter...

I noticed lately that SOMETIMES when starting my 2022 Challenger Ltd. after sitting for a while, so essentially a cold start (bike sits in a garage at about 55 degrees) there's an initial pause in the starter, like it's struggles to turnover, then catches and starts. To rule out the battery as an issue I just replaced it with a brand-new, dealer activated YUASA battery. This issue never presents itself if the bike is already warm.

Have any of you experienced this and of those who have, has it eventually worsened to require replacement of the starter.

Thanks!
21 - 39 of 39 Posts

·
Registered
2021 Roadmaster DH in White Smoke
Joined
·
248 Posts
12.1 volts is too low and the battery will sulfate. How long was the bike sitting to reach 12.1volts?

I am assuming the new Yuasa battery that was installed at the dealer was an AGM? AGM should be 12.6 to 12.8 after sitting about 12 hrs as already stated. At 12.2 volts, your battery is at 50% of it's capacity and at 12 volts you are below 40%. Put the battery tender on if your bike is not used for more than a couple days.

Make sure you are using a battery tender for a AGM battery. 2012-AGM Battery Tender

It does not seem like it is the starter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
543 Posts
Mine sounds the exact same and I replaced the 1 year old OEM battery with a Wicked Start 500 CCA battery with no change.

Interesting thing is I try to always wait for the battery voltage to be displayed. When it doesn't happen the voltage stays in the upper 10 to 11 VDC range. When it does happen the volts drops to the lower to below 10 VDC range. It makes sense that the voltage drops lower under heavier load. Just not sure if it's due to compression release not opening up or the starter.
A question. Have you ever tested the Wicked Start 500 CCA battery on a commercial battery load tester? Most of these claims made by mfg's above standard CCA are just that, claims. Marketing claims. That size battery is about maxed out in the 300's CCA range. I'd bet if you actually tested it you will find that it's no better or not much better than the ones claiming 310CCA.

I do believe compression/compression release or piston position could be a factor but I'd start with the battery given the voltage issues you explain.
 

·
Bronze member
Joined
·
5,987 Posts
A question. Have you ever tested the Wicked Start 500 CCA battery on a commercial battery load tester? Most of these claims made by mfg's above standard CCA are just that, claims. Marketing claims. That size battery is about maxed out in the 300's CCA range. I'd bet if you actually tested it you will find that it's no better or not much better than the ones claiming 310CCA.

I do believe compression/compression release or piston position could be a factor but I'd start with the battery given the voltage issues you explain.

Actually, you are dead on right! They actually listed the real cranking amps of that battery in fine print. and it mysteriously disappeared, it was about 320 CC.

CC is based on a load used and voltage drop over time. So, you can get a battery to give you any CC you want, but at what voltage and time is the real story.
 

·
Bronze member
Joined
·
5,987 Posts
Actually, you are dead on right! They actually listed the real cranking amps of that battery in fine print. and it mysteriously disappeared, it was about 320 CC.

CC is based on a load used and voltage drop over time. So, you can get a battery to give you any CC you want, but at what voltage and time is the real story.

Also, what most here on the forum don't understand is electricity. Amps are what the system takes or pulls, meaning the starter motor pulls the amp load it is designed to. That means if the starter pulls 200A, a 10,000-amp battery will make zero difference in power, just the starter would be able to run longer


Voltage is what is pushed to a circuit

Cold Cranking Amps

So how is this determined? Since "Cold" is in the name, they put a battery in a cold environment (0°F/-18°C) and measure the discharge load in amperes that a new, fully-charged battery can deliver for 30 seconds, while still maintaining terminal voltage equal to or higher than 1.20 volts per cell.

This means a voltage drop to 7.2 volts at the CC rating for 30 seconds.
 

·
Founding member / Distinguished
2021 Indian Challenger Limited Deepwater Metalic
Joined
·
6,156 Posts
A question. Have you ever tested the Wicked Start 500 CCA battery on a commercial battery load tester? Most of these claims made by mfg's above standard CCA are just that, claims. Marketing claims. That size battery is about maxed out in the 300's CCA range. I'd bet if you actually tested it you will find that it's no better or not much better than the ones claiming 310CCA.

I do believe compression/compression release or piston position could be a factor but I'd start with the battery given the voltage issues you explain.
Also, what most here on the forum don't understand is electricity. Amps are what the system takes or pulls, meaning the starter motor pulls the amp load it is designed to. That means if the starter pulls 200A, a 10,000-amp battery will make zero difference in power, just the starter would be able to run longer


Voltage is what is pushed to a circuit

Cold Cranking Amps

So how is this determined? Since "Cold" is in the name, they put a battery in a cold environment (0°F/-18°C) and measure the discharge load in amperes that a new, fully-charged battery can deliver for 30 seconds, while still maintaining terminal voltage equal to or higher than 1.20 volts per cell.

This means a voltage drop to 7.2 volts at the CC rating for 30 seconds.
Actually I'm an electronics technician who learned Ohm's law 42 years ago but thanks for playing.

As stated, I did get the battery for the advertised CCA which is a function of battery capacity vs temperature.

Ohm's law states I=E/R so if the voltage and resistance remains constant, the current flow will as well.

However, since batteries produce electricity via a chemical reaction, and chemical reactions are directly affected by temperature; CCA is a direct measurement of the batteries ability to provide the required amount of current at temperature. A 120 CCA battery will have less current available for the system to use than a 310 CCA battery.

Your explanation of CCA is a bit off. CCA is a measurement of the number of amps a battery can deliver at 0° F for 30 seconds and not drop below 7.2 volts. So a 120 CCA battery can deliver 120 amps for 30 seconds at 0° F while a 310 CCA batter can deliver 310 amps for 30 seconds at 0° F. So the CCA of a battery plays a huge role in the capacity of a battery ESPECIALLY in colder temperatures regions.

I would further argue that a higher CCA can provide the same amount of current for a longer period at every temperature than a lower CCA battery. So even though the system draws a known amount of current that doesn't change no matter what battery you use, the ability of the battery to delivery that current over time is dependent on the battery.

For example, a AAA battery will provide 1.5 VDC just like a D Cell will. However, in the same circuit, drawing the same amount of current, the D cell battery will far outlast the AAA battery since the D cell has a much higher capacity than the AAA.

As far as whether the Wicked Start battery is actually a 310 CCA battery vice a 500 CCA battery, I will believe you that some independent tester found that. But the cost of the Wicked Start battery and the advertised Duracell 310 CCA battery were comparable so I lost nothing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Madkow18

·
Bronze member
Joined
·
5,987 Posts
Your explanation of CCA is a bit off. CCA is a measurement of the number of amps a battery can deliver at 0° F for 30 seconds and not drop below 7.2 volts. So a 120 CCA battery can deliver 120 amps for 30 seconds at 0° F while a 310 CCA batter can deliver 310 amps for 30 seconds at 0° F. So the CCA of a battery plays a huge role in the capacity of a battery ESPECIALLY in colder temperatures regions.
.
So what is different from what I posted from what you posted…. Looks exactly the same.

I posted Cold Cranking Amps

So how is this determined? Since "Cold" is in the name, they put a battery in a cold environment (0°F/-18°C) and measure the discharge load in amperes that a new, fully-charged battery can deliver for 30 seconds, while still maintaining terminal voltage equal to or higher than 1.20 volts per cell.

As you know there are 6 cells in these batteries 6 X 1.2 = 7.2 volts

You posted:
CCA is a measurement of the number of amps a battery can deliver at 0° F for 30 seconds and not drop below 7.2 volts. So a 120 CCA battery can deliver 120 amps for 30 seconds at 0° F

I am fully aware of ohms law and wasn’t arguing that point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
I finally caught the start up issue on video this morning!

CCA being low is one of the things that I suspect, the other being some kind of compression release issue. That was a new battery in August before I went to Sturgis, I was worried it was the problem and peace of mind about not dying when I was gone. The one I pulled had a date of March 2021 so it wasn't that old but I didn't want to chance it, didn't matter though cause the new battery does the same thing.
You and I are having the same issue and the same conclusion. It’s a compression release issue. The voltage drop indicates the large amperage draw needed to push the piston through 11:1 compression. My bike is at the dealer for this now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,102 Posts
Mines doing something similar suddenly, now that the Temps are getting cold. As soon as Temps dropped its been happening. Not like that, sounds stuck then makes a weird crank sound but no codes or anything. Battery is full charged.
 

·
Bronze member
Joined
·
5,987 Posts
Hey Guys, mine did it. There is a service bulletin for it. The dealership just replaced my starter torque multiplier a couple weeks ago. It seems to have fixed the issue.

Thats what is called a start capacitor used on electric AC compressor and big electric motors. I don't see anything like this in the schematics or service manual. Wonder what they mean by torque multiplier
 

·
Founding member / Distinguished
2021 Indian Challenger Limited Deepwater Metalic
Joined
·
6,156 Posts
Hey Guys, mine did it. There is a service bulletin for it. The dealership just replaced my starter torque multiplier a couple weeks ago. It seems to have fixed the issue.
My dealer couldn’t find the service bulletin. Can you ask for the number?
 

·
Founding member / Distinguished
2021 Indian Challenger Limited Deepwater Metalic
Joined
·
6,156 Posts
I sent my dealer an email. I'll find out more for you.
Still no word on the recall but my dealer is working with Mother Indian to make the repair all the same. Mine had an issue with the fly by wire throttle which ended up being the ECU. Once they replace that they'll fix the starter clutch. Hope to have it back Wednesday or whenever I can take off of work and go get it when it's complete.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
539 Posts
My Challenger often does the "stalled" starter on initial cold start but without the motor running noise heard on the video.I would suspect the sprag is not holding.The dealership should be able to see some evidence of this with a close inspection of the driven face of the assy.
 
21 - 39 of 39 Posts
Top