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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all I have a 2016 Springfield with the High Flow AF the Oval one not the Round one. I wanted to put the stage 2 cams in and the dealer advised that the bike won't run right with the stock exhaust. I was hoping to keep the quiet ride for the wifey.
Is that legit?
thanks Folks. Be safe out there.
Jimbo
 

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Well, I can tell you in a couple hours. :) I put Vance and Hines Classic slip-ons, a Lloydz air cleaner, and a Fuel Moto Stage 1 tune on my new Chieftain a few weeks back. The pipes were borderline too loud. Saturday I had the Stage 2 cams put in, and the bike seemed to be even louder. I requested a new tune for the cams addition from Fuel Moto Saturday night using the Indian Stage 2 calibration as the "base", and by Sunday morning had two of them to try (he advised to use the one I like better - different strategies).

Last night I e-mailed Fuel Moto asking if I could run the stock pipes instead (and would I need a new tune etc), and was advised by Craig that I'd be fine running the stock pipes with the tunes he had already sent. So, I put those back on late last night and flashed the bike with one of the 2 tunes. I'm planning to head out in about an hour for a quick lunch time road test. I'll report back...
 

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Just got back from a 40 mile ride. To recap, the bike is running the Lloydz high-flow air cleaner that uses the stock cover, Indian Stage 2 cams, the stock unmodified Indian slip-on mufflers, and a Fuel Moto Stage 2 tune.

It runs great, no issues at all during my test ride. The bike is strong and smooth. I can't attest as to how it would be running using the Indian Stage 2 calibration that comes with the cams however.

Sound-wise, the tone is deep and sounds really good during acceleration. While cruising it is very quiet, which I'm happy about. As I say often on here, I'm primarily a longer distance rider. I do at least 1 very large multiweek trip each year. When I ride locally, it is rarely under 50-100 miles. While aftermarket pipes sound cool, they are utterly annoying (to me anyway) after a few days on the open road. At that point, I just want to relax and enjoy my tunes. The lopey cam idle is still there obviously, but not as pronounced as it was with the Vance and Hines Classic slip-ons. That was never a thing I cared about though, I don't get why people care about what the bike sounds like at a stand-still, I'm moving 99% of the time. :) I guess if I were a bar hopper or something and I spent considerable time standing around talking about the bike instead of riding it, then it might be more important? Who knows on that one.

Anyway, as of now, I think I'm done modifying it. Fuel Moto did send me 2 tunes, so I'll try the other one as well for grins. I could actually stand a slightly louder exhaust, and wouldn't even mind it so much, but I also don't believe that one exists on the market that would be appropriate short of the Indian Stage 1 pipes which are horribly over-priced. I put a set of S&S Grand Nationals on my Harley over the weekend, and they sound fantastic with the baffles intact (they are easily removable on those, but I don't see me doing that). I wish they made those for the Chieftain, I'd buy a set right now. I guess I'm going to sell the Vance and Hines pipes with 400 miles on them on eBay.
 

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Anyway, as of now, I think I'm done modifying it. Fuel Moto did send me 2 tunes, so I'll try the other one as well for grins. I could actually stand a slightly louder exhaust, and wouldn't even mind it so much, but I also don't believe that one exists on the market that would be appropriate short of the Indian Stage 1 pipes which are horribly over-priced.
American Custom Exhuast… I don't know if you have heard of them or not... but they use the factory pipes and open them up a little bit with different baffles... they sound good at idle and people report not that much more loudness at speed than the factory pipes.. $300 if you send yours in as a core they knock $75 off... it just might be the ticket for you...

how does the seat dyno feel?.. can you tell that you spent any money on the upgrades?
 

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Yeah, the bike feels stronger particularly at higher RPMs. Passing power seems better. This was the same result I got on my 2016 Dark Horse that had the same setup, except it had Vance & Hines pipes and was running the factory calibration. I never took that bike on long trips, so the pipes on there were more tolerable. The Stage 1 upgrade is a large boost in performance, and I view the cams as incremental from that.

Thanks for the heads-up, I'll check out American Custom!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks a lot. I'll be discussing this with the dealer. They were reluctant to install on the stock exhaust. I'm a longer distance rider and I don't need the drone. Just the power.
Jim
 

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Sure, no problem! I'll have more to report later this evening, as curiosity got the best of me. I like to see progressive changes when possible, so I just got done knocking the plugs out of the stock mufflers. I will report back with the volume level difference in that scenario, as well as any perceived performance difference. I wanted to do it hours apart for the best possible chance to determine the results.

I figured should I decide that I like the totally stock unmodified mufflers better, I can buy a set easily for $100-$200 bucks. I did look at the American Custom Exhaust website, they have the modified stock mufflers as reported above.

The reason I want to try this slight modification to the stock mufflers, is I had swapped between stock pipes and aftermarket ones 4x on my Kawasaki Vaquero that had a custom tune on it, and the performance difference was straight up shocking (better) with the aftermarket ones. I realize that is a much different beast than this one, but I can't help but feel like there is a difference. We'll find out, I'm about to gear up and ride for a little while.
 

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Just got back from a 40 mile ride. To recap, the bike is running the Lloydz high-flow air cleaner that uses the stock cover, Indian Stage 2 cams, the stock unmodified Indian slip-on mufflers, and a Fuel Moto Stage 2 tune.

It runs great, no issues at all during my test ride. The bike is strong and smooth. I can't attest as to how it would be running using the Indian Stage 2 calibration that comes with the cams however.

Sound-wise, the tone is deep and sounds really good during acceleration. While cruising it is very quiet, which I'm happy about. As I say often on here, I'm primarily a longer distance rider. I do at least 1 very large multiweek trip each year. When I ride locally, it is rarely under 50-100 miles. While aftermarket pipes sound cool, they are utterly annoying (to me anyway) after a few days on the open road. At that point, I just want to relax and enjoy my tunes. The lopey cam idle is still there obviously, but not as pronounced as it was with the Vance and Hines Classic slip-ons. That was never a thing I cared about though, I don't get why people care about what the bike sounds like at a stand-still, I'm moving 99% of the time. :) I guess if I were a bar hopper or something and I spent considerable time standing around talking about the bike instead of riding it, then it might be more important? Who knows on that one.

Anyway, as of now, I think I'm done modifying it. Fuel Moto did send me 2 tunes, so I'll try the other one as well for grins. I could actually stand a slightly louder exhaust, and wouldn't even mind it so much, but I also don't believe that one exists on the market that would be appropriate short of the Indian Stage 1 pipes which are horribly over-priced. I put a set of S&S Grand Nationals on my Harley over the weekend, and they sound fantastic with the baffles intact (they are easily removable on those, but I don't see me doing that). I wish they made those for the Chieftain, I'd buy a set right now. I guess I'm going to sell the Vance and Hines pipes with 400 miles on them on eBay.
Before selling your Vance and Hines pipes, you might look into some V&H Quiet Baffles. They make them for quite a few of their pipes and I believe the Classics as well (that is assuming that the classics you are referring to are the straight pipes and not the downturns). I had the V&H for a while and didn't think they were that loud. In fact I think my Stage 1's are about as loud. But, one thing that bothered me about the V&H is how deep and booming the sound was. It screwed with my tinnitus too much. Many say the Stage 1's are way too quite, but for me they sound really good.
 

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Ok, here is the update using the stock mufflers with the plugs punched out. The bike is louder as expected at idle and during acceleration, but not as loud as with the Vance & Hines Classics. I would say it lands about halfway in between. While cruising, it is still very quiet and mellow. I would say maybe 10% louder than the stock/unmodified pipes. When giving it throttle it has a nice bark, the tone is not as deep as the Vance & Hines. It sounds good though.

Performance-wise, the butt dyno says that the stock/unmodified mufflers were robbing around 20% of the gains achieved by the Stage 2 modifications. The bike feels much more snappy with the plugs knocked out, and it clearly is breathing better.

Anyway, I'm calling this a win. The bike sounds good, but is quiet at cruising speed, and the performance gains seem to be all there.
 

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Just got back from a 40 mile ride. To recap, the bike is running the Lloydz high-flow air cleaner that uses the stock cover, Indian Stage 2 cams, the stock unmodified Indian slip-on mufflers, and a Fuel Moto Stage 2 tune.

It runs great, no issues at all during my test ride. The bike is strong and smooth. I can't attest as to how it would be running using the Indian Stage 2 calibration that comes with the cams however.

Sound-wise, the tone is deep and sounds really good during acceleration. While cruising it is very quiet, which I'm happy about. As I say often on here, I'm primarily a longer distance rider. I do at least 1 very large multiweek trip each year. When I ride locally, it is rarely under 50-100 miles. While aftermarket pipes sound cool, they are utterly annoying (to me anyway) after a few days on the open road. At that point, I just want to relax and enjoy my tunes. The lopey cam idle is still there obviously, but not as pronounced as it was with the Vance and Hines Classic slip-ons. That was never a thing I cared about though, I don't get why people care about what the bike sounds like at a stand-still, I'm moving 99% of the time. :) I guess if I were a bar hopper or something and I spent considerable time standing around talking about the bike instead of riding it, then it might be more important? Who knows on that one.

Anyway, as of now, I think I'm done modifying it. Fuel Moto did send me 2 tunes, so I'll try the other one as well for grins. I could actually stand a slightly louder exhaust, and wouldn't even mind it so much, but I also don't believe that one exists on the market that would be appropriate short of the Indian Stage 1 pipes which are horribly over-priced. I put a set of S&S Grand Nationals on my Harley over the weekend, and they sound fantastic with the baffles intact (they are easily removable on those, but I don't see me doing that). I wish they made those for the Chieftain, I'd buy a set right now. I guess I'm going to sell the Vance and Hines pipes with 400 miles on them on eBay.
I would like to get just a little more performance out of my 17 Chieftain limited...but as soon as you say that, it's change air cleaner, change exhaust...etc.. When I find a way to get just a tad more running FACTORY parts I will Giterdone!! But I hate really noisy exhausts!
 

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I would like to get just a little more performance out of my 17 Chieftain limited...but as soon as you say that, it's change air cleaner, change exhaust...etc.. When I find a way to get just a tad more running FACTORY parts I will Giterdone!! But I hate really noisy exhausts!
My advice would be a Fuel Moto Powervision 3 (PV3) with an improved stock tune. You can get free tune updates if you add more items later on. You're looking at $384 using the RIDEITOUT coupon available now.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Hi all at this time I talked to a mechanic at the dealer and they're installing the cams with the 30k service. The Mechanic also noted that he's not a fan of the loudness. I agreed. He noted that I'd be fine. I'm stocked to ride this week and I'll update as soon as I get this completed.
thanks all!
Jim
 

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Hi all I have a 2016 Springfield with the High Flow AF the Oval one not the Round one. I wanted to put the stage 2 cams in and the dealer advised that the bike won't run right with the stock exhaust. I was hoping to keep the quiet ride for the wifey.
Is that legit?
thanks Folks. Be safe out there.
Jimbo
Discussions about exhaust systems and oil will always get you more, varied opinions than discussions about weather or politics and often they'll be based on less science than a Ouija board.
The Thunderstroke engine is a slow spinning V-twin that has widely spaced firing intervals and TWO big, good-flowing mufflers fed by big pipes, from big ports. It exhales VERY WELL. The stage 2 cams don't increase valve lift AT ALL. They just juggle valve timing a little bit. With the oval "high flow" air cleaner and Stage 2 cams, your engine won't be huffing much differently than it did when it was bone stock. The stock exhaust system will run fine and the engine won't suffer a bit with it. Changing to a "high flow" exhaust may make it sound faster, but that's all. In fact, depending on the aftermarket exhaust chosen, it may loose performance in some RPM ranges.

The first time I rode my Roadmaster with ported heads and the Stage 3 116-CI kit to the dealership, the owners and head wrench came out to check it out. The first comment made was, "Stock exhaust?" I replied, "Yeah. It's a touring bike and I have no use for the noise." And it's a freaking BEAST when I twist the throttle.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Yes from what I read its all about cam duration. Its holding the port open longer allowing better flow. Your right its a touring bike not a race bike.
Cool!
Jim
 

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Anyone interested in data-driven ( forum ) information ?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Hi all I got the Stage 2 cams in. Still has the stock exhaust. It has a loping idle. It is stronger off the line, It has more power. I wouldn't call it amazing. It's subtle. I've only done 100 miles and I'm going to take it easy for 300 miles.
Jim
 

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. I could actually stand a slightly louder exhaust, and wouldn't even mind it so much, but I also don't believe that one exists on the market that would be appropriate short of the Indian Stage 1 pipes which are horribly over-priced. I put a set of S&S Grand Nationals on my Harley over the weekend, and they sound fantastic with the baffles intact (they are easily removable on those, but I don't see me doing that). I wish they made those for the Chieftain, I'd buy a set right now. I guess I'm going to sell the Vance and Hines pipes with 400 miles on them on eBay.
You can knock the plug out of the stock exhaust, it opens the sound up a little and you gain the performance of any of the hi-performance slip-on's.

LOL, I was going to post this and read that is what you did! Excellent. I ran that way for about a year and then tested some aftermarket slip-on's that are louder then the stock with plugs out. Performance wise, about the same.
 

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Ok then, here is what "we" know:

Stock 111 slipons with plugs knocked out will outperform most all aftermarket slipons. The charts on Fuel Moto show this.

The highest HP Thunderstoke we have data for (117hp), does so with Indian Stage 1 slipons. Trying out TABs with 2.5" baffles, the engine lost 7 lb ft of TRQ ! Accordingly, it is logical that the popular Zombie baffle costs even more power.

For best performance, Thunderstroke build (111 and 116) data indicates a baffle size of 2" or under is best.

Apparently, the thunderstroke is quite sensitive to a loss of exhuast gas velocity within the slipon.
 
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Ok then, here is what "we" know:

Stock 111 slipons with plugs knocked out will outperform most all aftermarket slipons. The charts on Fuel Moto show this.

The highest HP Thunderstoke we have data for (117hp), does so with Indian Stage 1 slipons. Trying out TABs with 2.5" baffles, the engine lost 7 lb ft of TRQ ! Accordingly, it is logical that the popular Zombie baffle costs even more power.

For best performance, Thunderstroke build (111 and 116) data indicates a baffle size of 2" or under is best.

Apparently, the thunderstroke is quite sensitive to a loss of exhuast gas velocity in the slipon.
You are 100% correct. The TS engines are very sensitive to exhaust gas velocity. 1.75" is the ideal baffle size.

The TS engines respond well to proper exhaust scavenging. Exhausts that make me cringe...Zombie baffles, True Duals, and CFR SlipOns.....

I am in the process of developing tunes for the Trask Performance 2:1 header/exhaust. They are giving me access to their Dyno so I will have good documentation of peak performance from stage 1, stage 2, and stage 3 cams in my TS111. I hope to repeat this with the Rinehart Slimline dual's and slip-ons; which has impressed me so far.
 
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