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2021 Indian Challenger
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I rode my challenger for about 400 miles before I swapped over to the Indian branded stage 1 exhaust. The bike sounded more aggressive, but I didn't really notice any sort of increase in throttle response or acceleration.

When I took my bike in for its 500 mile service, I had the dealer install the Stage 1 air cleaner and flash the ECU. I was thinking that the addition of the air cleaner and flash, I’d notice some improvement.

The bike feels the same as if I hadn't spent a dime on it. Anyone looking to do the stage 1 kit, don’t do it for any sort of performance increase.

This comes with the caveat that I obviously don't have any dyno numbers or measured performance metrics, this is just from a seat of the pants perspective.
 

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I rode my challenger for about 400 miles before I swapped over to the Indian branded stage 1 exhaust. The bike sounded more aggressive, but I didn't really notice any sort of increase in throttle response or acceleration.

When I took my bike in for its 500 mile service, I had the dealer install the Stage 1 air cleaner and flash the ECU. I was thinking that the addition of the air cleaner and flash, I’d notice some improvement.

The bike feels the same as if I hadn't spent a dime on it. Anyone looking to do the stage 1 kit, don’t do it for any sort of performance increase.

This comes with the caveat that I obviously don't have any dyno numbers or measured performance metrics, this is just from a seat of the pants perspective.

On most modern motorcycles, Stage 1 is more of a marketing gimmick than anything else. On the 111/116 engines you saw a 2 HP increase at wide open throttle. The Challenger gets the airflow from ram pressure through the frame, just like the 111/116 bikes did and that's hard to beat with that silly side scoop. On a stock engine a proper tune will give you better gains than stage 1 crap. The OEMS decided to get in on the snake oil machine that all the aftermarket parts companies have been pushing for years. I just posted a video of a tail gunner exhaust claiming a 10 HP gain. On the Indians the stock exhaust gives the best numbers
 

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Yeah, they took us for a pony ride with their anemic upgrades. I cant believe you fell for that $1000 set of mufflers. They perform exactly the same as stock. The only difference you may "feel" is the slightly richer fuel mixture from the $35 flash tune. I. Do have to admit that a Tab pipe with the 2-1/2" baffle "feels" more powerful, but I can honestly say that these bikes have a long break in period, and mine came alive at just under 12,000 miles. No BS. Can't speak for anyone else but mine breaks the tire loose and the front wheel lifts slightly off tve ground when I hit it coming from a stop. Didnt used to. Cant wait for my flash tune whenever that happens. I have the silly air filter which makes no sense as Baron says. It reminds me of the ram air that they used to put on all the japanese street bikes. Problem is, the 02 sensors restrict the airflow to the EPA limit no matter how much air and fuel you try to cram in there.
 

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Exhaust alone on any bike does very minimal if any for performance! If you're going strictly for sound then get something cheaper and nicer than stage 1. I have Stage 1 Indian exhaust on my bike but only because it came on it when I bought the bike and don't want to spend the money to change and also, I actually like the way it sounds. Not too loud but loud enough. Intake and exhaust upgrades are only needed when you really start putting some power into your motor but exhaust and intake alone will do almost nothing. Intake and exhaust is just the 1st stage of performance because coupled with engine upgrades, they do well but stock set up will choke up so they do need to be changed when putting real power into any motor
 

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Yeah just slip-on mufflers for me. I'm looking at RCX and Rinehart, possibly RUSH Warhorse as well. I really don't need more horsepower but want to hear my engine over wind and other background noises.
 

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Yeah just slip-on mufflers for me. I'm looking at RCX and Rinehart, possibly RUSH Warhorse as well. I really don't need more horsepower but want to hear my engine over wind and other background noises.
I just put the RCX on my Scout 60 bobber. Great sound, but they are definitely 'loud' .
 

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If the stage 1 intake does little or nothing to the bike, why is it/was it recommended before getting a Llioyd's tune? I was told, more than once, that the stage 1 intake really wakes the bike up after putting new slip ons on it. Now it seems that is not the case.
 

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On my 116, I noticed an increase in performance after I had the dealer install stage 1 with tune. It still seemed to gasp for air and/or fuel at higher speeds, though. Stage 2 woke the bike up.
 

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2021 Indian Challenger
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
On my 116, I noticed an increase in performance after I had the dealer install stage 1 with tune. It still seemed to gasp for air and/or fuel at higher speeds, though. Stage 2 woke the bike up.
I'm really hoping that they release a big bore kit for these motors. I think I'd splurge and do cams/bore kit at the same time; cams alone doesn't seem like its worth the money.
 

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If the stage 1 intake does little or nothing to the bike, why is it/was it recommended before getting a Llioyd's tune? I was told, more than once, that the stage 1 intake really wakes the bike up after putting new slip ons on it. Now it seems that is not the case.
Who recommend that?
 

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I'm really hoping that they release a big bore kit for these motors. I think I'd splurge and do cams/bore kit at the same time; cams alone doesn't seem like its worth the money.
Agreed. My SPDH is now on par with my Raider and M109R. Hate to think of how much my wallet will be crying....
 

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Who recommend that?
I read it on one of the Facebook pages, it was supposedly suggested by the guys at Lloyds, and I also had it told to me by an Indian tech that I trust.
As for the stage 1 air intake waking the bike up, I read that numerous times on this forum going back a year at least. So I assumed it was correct.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Yeah, they took us for a pony ride with their anemic upgrades. I cant believe you fell for that $1000 set of mufflers. They perform exactly the same as stock. The only difference you may "feel" is the slightly richer fuel mixture from the $35 flash tune. I. Do have to admit that a Tab pipe with the 2-1/2" baffle "feels" more powerful, but I can honestly say that these bikes have a long break in period, and mine came alive at just under 12,000 miles. No BS. Can't speak for anyone else but mine breaks the tire loose and the front wheel lifts slightly off tve ground when I hit it coming from a stop. Didnt used to. Cant wait for my flash tune whenever that happens. I have the silly air filter which makes no sense as Baron says. It reminds me of the ram air that they used to put on all the japanese street bikes. Problem is, the 02 sensors restrict the airflow to the EPA limit no matter how much air and fuel you try to cram in there.
Well, I don't regret doing the stage 1 kit as I know that they're pre requisites for future IMC covered upgrades, but I wanted to let folks know not to expect much in the way of performance improvement when shelling out 1500 bucks; especially for folks that will only ever do stage 1.

I'd like to also add that really love the sound of the Stage 1 Pipes; mainly because they're louder than stock but not face melting loud like my Rineharts were. Totally agree with you that they're charging a bit too much for them.
 

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"I read it on one of the Facebook pages, it was supposedly suggested by the guys at Lloyds"

I decided to call Llioyds myself instead of relying on someone's post on a Facebook group page. Seems like if you like the looks of the stage 1 intake get it, otherwise the stock one does just as good a job.
 

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"I read it on one of the Facebook pages, it was supposedly suggested by the guys at Lloyds"

I decided to call Llioyds myself instead of relying on someone's post on a Facebook group page. Seems like if you like the looks of the stage 1 intake get it, otherwise the stock one does just as good a job.

Lloydz has said on videos many times that on Stock bikes intake and exhaust make little to no difference in performance. The limiting factory was the heads and valves. Fuel Motto is one of the only high performance tuning shops that show you the real measured performance changes with various configurations on Dyno charts. And they show that stock pipes and intake are pretty much a good as you can go.

Like you said Stage 1 is for 99% look and sound and feel.
 

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I read it on one of the Facebook pages, it was supposedly suggested by the guys at Lloyds, and I also had it told to me by an Indian tech that I trust.
As for the stage 1 air intake waking the bike up, I read that numerous times on this forum going back a year at least. So I assumed it was correct.
One thing I’ve found on motorcycle forums...when someone spends money on a “performance” item, you can rest assured they’re going to report it added hp/torque because they can “feel” the difference. Often that “feeling” is in their head. I’ve seen posts where people added things to their bike that were performance decreasing, but then claim how much more hp/torque it added because their “butt” dyno said so.
 

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One thing I’ve found on motorcycle forums...when someone spends money on a “performance” item, you can rest assured they’re going to report it added hp/torque because they can “feel” the difference. Often that “feeling” is in their head. I’ve seen posts where people added things to their bike that were performance decreasing, but then claim how much more hp/torque it added because their “butt” dyno said so.

Its actually a thing called "Confirmation bias" our perception of things is based on what we perceive to be true. This has been a proven debate in audiophile world for a long time. Where people can here the difference on the 10,0000 dollar plutonium speaker cables vs the good standard 16 gage cables. In blind tests they absolutely could not.

When adding an exhaust and intake, riders will hear and feel the louder vibrations and intake noise. This tricks them into thinking they have more power because we perceive power with louder sounds and more vibration. So rider really believe they have more power because they are tricked in to it.

Another way to explain it is driving a luxury car and accidently going fast because you didn't feel it.
 

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One thing I’ve found on motorcycle forums...when someone spends money on a “performance” item, you can rest assured they’re going to report it added hp/torque because they can “feel” the difference. Often that “feeling” is in their head. I’ve seen posts where people added things to their bike that were performance decreasing, but then claim how much more hp/torque it added because their “butt” dyno said so.
Absolutely. And I'm late to the whole Lioyds fan fare as I wasn't really looking for more performance, so didn't follow any of the videos. However I started reading how it fixed the off idle acceleration and dead spots. Now that I want so just started playing catch up reading some of the posts. As usual, it's better to find out for yourself from the source then to hear something second hand.
 
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