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Slow Crank New Battery And Starter. Any Ideas? It's Driving Me Nuts

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My 01 Scout really wont crank, very labored turning over. Here's what I know it's not (either new or checked)

Bike was starting and running with no issues, parked it . A week later go to start it and it cranked slow and stalled out when got to compression on engine. Battery was 3 yrs old, and although I had good lights, starter draws a lot more so i replaced it. All cables were checked at this time.

Went to start, no difference. a friend sold me a brand new Ultima 1.4kw starter he had no use for for $50.00, so I tore down the outer primary (belt ect look good) pulled starter and installed new one. Inspected and cleaned jack shaft and lubed inner and outer bushings jack shaft runs in (they looked "OK" , no wear marks or galling.

Still very slow , labored crank. (It will crank, but very slow, with plugs out of engine)

Replaced plugs and got 'lucky' it was very labored, but started, Engine seems to run OK.

Ran a seperate start wire and shot it 12v (so the bikes push to start switch and relay were not involved, and even used the 'slap start button" on rear of solenoid of new starter, same results.

At This point I suspect either the inner primary bearing and / or the input shaft bearing on the tranny.

Any thoughts? don't want to start ripping it apart with no real plan or idea
(already threw a new battery and starter on it due to rushed diagnostics)

After the fact benched BOTH starters,both check out OK.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks,
I did (should have mentioned it in my post) Both cables are new and heavier than the OEM. also ran separate wire to solenoid When it was on the bike and shot it 12v, And just to add misery it has a "slap start" button on rear of solenoid (of new starter) push it same results.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Look for simple things that might make no sense ie: voltage reg, battery cables see if there is water in the right handle bar buttons or the other side the relay.
Thanks,
I did (should have mentioned it in my post) Both cables are new and heavier than the OEM. also ran separate wire to solenoid When it was on the bike and shot it 12v, And just to add misery it has a "slap start" button on rear of solenoid (of new starter) push it same results.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Have you by chance pulled the plugs out and tried to turn it over?
I did, and although it didn't stall out, it turned way slow. did reinstall plugs and got lucky one start engine doesn't seem to be the issue, ran good. I didn't let it run long figuring something bound up somewhere, concerned about doing more damage.
 

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Right after cranking, feel the cables, are they hot? Does the starter feel hot right after cranking? Either one and you have a high resistance short. Check ground cables, if cables get hot, check where they are mounted for a good ground. If starter gets hot you may have a short or broken winding in the armature.......the starter WAS $50.00.....but it can be rebuilt.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Made a few calls, and took a look at parts / service manuals. There are two bearings involved before it even gets to the transmission. one on the clutch basket, the other in the inner primary. Hoping it's one or the other of them. Have to pull it down that far anyway to examine trans input anyway. And although the Revtech is not the transmission to end all, mine has been smooth and quiet and never had shifting issues or had to hunt for neutral.
I'll update this when I get it apart, in case it saves anyone else grief.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Right after cranking, feel the cables, are they hot? Does the starter feel hot right after cranking? Either one and you have a high resistance short. Check ground cables, if cables get hot, check where they are mounted for a good ground. If starter gets hot you may have a short or broken winding in the armature.......the starter WAS $50.00.....but it can be rebuilt.
The starter did get warm, but I think it's more from having an excess drag / load placed on it than the starter itself. The cables are new "up-rated" heavier cables.
My current suspect(s) are the clutch basket and / or inner primary bearing. Thinking more likely clutch basket bearing. Guessing (it's a "sealed" bearing) the seal failed with motor running, motor has more than enough torque to over come the wasted bearing, the 1.4 kw starter, not so much.
 

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Speaking of easy to find neutral, can the kickstand wires be loose broke or rotten. Safety neutral switch-sounds like you’ve checked everything stupid, I’m just grasping at what’s left to trip over. All fuses are good???? Any chips on the starter motor and the bike shuts off at the chip. Both have happened to me. I had a car (62 jag) had similar burps as mentioned. I scrapped some paint off the frame and ran a new (extra) ground wire to one of the rear signals. Problem/problem solved.
 

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Did you pull the plug out of the base and make sure your oil didn't drain and fill the crank up with oil? This causes drag on the flywheels. Which can cause a loss of 15 to 20 hp or make it take that much more for cranking. It would be the difference of running on land or running in waste deep water
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Have you by chance pulled the plugs out and tried to turn it over?
I did not, but for the small amount of time it takes vs. Ripping primary drive apart I'll give it a shot.
Had to drain and remove the oil "bag" to pull starter and it was full, so probally not the issue.
I do remember a friends HD Dyna that did do that though, apparantly a oil pump check valve problem. It had a lot of oil in the crank case
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
update; finally found the time to pull primary drive down completely, and have both starters checked at a re-builder. It's looking like it sucks to be me. Clutch basket and inner primary bearings as well as both starters "check out". No "drag' there!
With plugs out, turning motor over by hand it spins freely, and a straw in the spark plug holes confirms piston movement.
The only thing it ca be now is a valve train issue
I'm guessing one cylinders valves are BOTH closed, and not opening. The starter motor has enough ass to overcome compression resistance of one jug, but not two.
It starts to crank, but when the "good' cylinder comes around to compression, and the "bad" jug isn't opening intake or exhaust valves, it can't beef two cylinders trying to compress.
With any amount of luck it's top end ((cracked rocker arms?) and not the lower end cam, lifters or gears.

Anybody have any experience or insight? 'Googling' it doesn't show any reports of rampant valve train failures in the S&S or the HD EVO
 
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