Indian Motorcycle Forum banner

1 - 20 of 512 Posts

·
Bronze member
Joined
·
2,644 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Note - 12/29/2018: Revolution Performance has verified Scout 60 application of their 1300cc big bore kit. They are showing that a bone stock Scout 60 moves to 88hp with only the kit and their PVCX tune - which is the same power made with a "best choice" stage 1 combo + Fuel Moto PVCX flash tune on a Scout 60... This kit should offer 100+ HP to an owner that already has an 88hp (Stage 1 + PVCX) Scout 60. But at this time, this remains to be seen.

Note - 7/15/18 : The 2018 Scout 60 is showing a 54mm "induction system" , on the specs, on the Indian website. This is a new development - previous S60's use the same induction system as the S69's - (60mm throttle body).
With EPOCH6's data, it would seem that 2018's will respond "same as" the older models, As more 2018 S60 data is acquired, we will know more.


The "dirty little secret" is that the Scout 60 runs a setup, from Polaris, on the ME17 ECU that detunes it. DynoJet has "defeated" this detune. A PVCX from DJ or Fuel Moto and a flash with the appropriate Scout 60 tune will "unleash" the Scout 60.

Those of you that have "rat raced" both the 60 and the 69 are well aware of the fact that both have the same power delivery up to around 6000 rpm. After which, the 69 does make more power. A significant reason as to why this is so, is that the 60 is programmed to partially close the throttle butterfly in the upper RPM range.

This information has been known for a long while but not widely shared. This post is an attempt to keep this knowledge readily available and easily accessible. You can read the DynoJet research and findings yourself - Dynojet Power Vision CX on Scout Sixty anyone? And the Fuel Moto findings: Fuel Moto Scout dyno testing & Dynojet PV-CX mapping


Spoiler alert: The end of this story - for those that do not wish to study the below. Scout 60 owners looking for more performance, in increments over time, whose end result is S69 power, must follow this recipe precisely if "bang-for-buck is paramount:
1). PVCX from Fuel Moto, run the S60 "improved stock" tune. This is the single largest increase in power your money can buy and creates a "whole new riding experience".
2). Add slipons / exhaust and reflash with the appropriate FM tune. Results are near parity with stock Scout 69 performance - see below.
3). Then add a performance intake (Trask, S&S, MaxFlow or similar) and reflash with a FM or DJ Scout 60 Stage 1 tune. If using the MaxFlow, use the DJ Maxflow tune for Scout 60's. This results in power that will outclass stock S69's as well as PVCX tuned stock S69's..


The solution to getting Scout 69 power is to install "stage 1" (Your choice of performance slipons or 2-1, and a performance Intake) , get a PVCX and flash your 60 with the appropriate DynoJet or Fuel Moto Scout 60 tune. Appropriate means the file that matches your bikes' mod combo. Testing by FM and DJ indicate that you will instantly have better performance than that of a stock S69 as well as a PVCX tuned Stock S69..

Firstly, see the 2 charts below - They show our "target" - typical power levels and curves for a stock S69


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now let us see our next "target" - A stock Scout 69 running a PVCX with FM's "improved stock" tune:


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now we move on to the Scout 60 charts:
The below FM chart shows the proof. As noted, the S60 tune is using the S&S Intake and performance slipons.




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The below DJ chart is a Stage 1 S60 before and after PVCX tuning. This chart further indicates proof of the parity between S60 + Stage 1 + PVCX and the S69. The blue lines are proof that the detune will kill power production of Stage 1 components. Adding intake and exhaust without an FM or DJ PVCX tune can be considered a waste of money on a Scout 60!
This S60 tune is using the S&S Intake and Trask 2-1 exhaust.
Sidebar: Note that a name brand 2 -1 does NOT produce increases in power levels vs the stock headers + slipons!





-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since it is common to replace the stock slipons, the chart below is evidence of near parity between the S69 and the S60 + slipons + PVCX. ( Many charts for a stock S69 are in the area of 83-85 hp / 61 -64 lb ft TRQ. )


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stock S60 and Improved Stock (PVCX tuned) - These two charts below tells all S60 owners that a PVCX (preferably from Fuel Moto so as to get access to this tune) should be the first performance part added to a Scout 60. This alone is a radical change to your ride.. Imagine your bike with more power everywhere and a 12 - 15 hp ( up to +27% ) increase in the upper RPM range!



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A note about S60 gearing.

It is a fact that the S60 gears 1-4 are identical to the S69's. The S60's 5th gear is identical to the S69's 6th gear. The S60 is simply missing the S69's 5th gear. No impact on highway capability.
(Opinion: No impact on "rat racing" around town - running up to redline - as this activity only uses, at most, gears 1-4. Given the broad powerband and high redline, little to no impact on high speed "racing" as a shift at redline in 4th, to 5th, the S60 will just see a larger RPM drop than the S69.)
Verify the above by comparing Indian literature on each under the "specs" tab...


A note about S60 vs S69 for "power junkies".

As seen below, FM's tune development for the S69 indicates that a performance Intake and exhaust (a "stage 1" type setup) + PVCX will exceed 100 hp (102/72). This tune and chart are using the S&S intake and Khrome Werks slip-ons as the Stage 1 components, on a S69..
At this time, this power level is simply not attainable with a S60.




I will update this top post as new information becomes available.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,920 Posts
This chart makes me wonder if the (attractive) wider torque curve of the 60 will be changed much once the tune for the top-end is altered. OR, is it a much hotter little engine once the throttle de-tune is sorted out. Performance throughout the power band, plus a wider power band is a very good thing! Also, does the 'missing' gear in the 60 really matter to overall street-able performance?
Thanks for the work on this topic! I am trying to decide which would be my best choice overall. It is looking like the 60 will way outperform once tuned unless I am missing something. Maybe the 6,000 rpm torque drop-off will remain more pronounced on the 60?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,642 Posts
If someone close to me that had a dyno and wanted to use my Scout 60 as a mule, and install the FM setup on it. Would gladly like to see the numbers myself.
 

·
Bronze member
Joined
·
2,644 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Thank you thegent, gear ratio data is verified and added to top post..
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,483 Posts
The "dirty little secret" is that the Scout 60 runs a setup, from Polaris, on the ME17 ECU that detunes it.

Those of you that have "rat raced" both the 60 and the 69 are well aware of the fact that both have the same power delivery up to around 6000 rpm. After which, the 69 does make more power. The reason why is that the 60 is programmed to partially close the throttle butterfly in the upper RPM range.

The solution is to acquire a PVCX and flash your 60 with the appropriate DynoJet Scout 60 tune. Appropriate means the file that matches your bikes' mod combo. You will instantly have identical performance of a 69 running your same mod combo. FYI: This most certainly applies to dead stock Scout 60's.

At the time of this post, Fuel Moto is developing Scout tunes. Please call Fuel Moto before buying a PVCX for your Scout(60 or 69). Any PVCX (any application) should be purchased through them. A FM PVCX will have all available FM tunes and all available DynoJet tunes to pick through as well as the free FM custom tune service.

This information has been known for a long while but not widely shared. This post is an attempt to keep this knowledge readily available and easily accessible. You can read the DynoJet research and findings yourself - Dynojet Power Vision CX on Scout Sixty anyone?

The knowledge of "something wrong" with the 60 power delivery was easy to see once Scout 60 dyno charts were posted. They indicate an obviously "artificial" drop in the power curves beginning at 5000 rpm and becoming significant by 6000 rpm. Further investigation by Dynojet revealed the "detune".

The facts are that the 60 has only a 133cc deficit, but a higher compression ratio and a more "square" bore to stroke ratio compared to the 69. (A more square ratio promotes a wider TRQ curve.) Opinion: It would seem Polaris found early on that the 60 performed practically identically to the 69 - which could not be tolerated from a marketing standpoint - hence the detune.

Here is a magazine chart that illustrates the issue perfectly: I use the term "practically identical" in order to be exactly correct, but the fact is that the differences, as seen below, from 3k to 5K are within the margin of variance/error between any two dyno runs. Calling this section of the power bands "statistically identical" or even "identical" is also appropriate.



Also. It is a fact that the S60 gears 1-4 are identical to the S69's. The S60's 5th gear is identical to the S69's 6th gear. So, the fact is that the S60 is simply missing the S69's 5th gear. No impact on highway capability. No impact on "rat racing" around town - running up to redline - as this activity only uses, at most, gears 1-4. IMO, given the broad powerband and high redline, little to no impact on high speed "racing" - a shift at redline, in 4th, to 5th will simply see more RPM drop on the S60 compared to the S69. Verify the above by comparing Indian literature on each under the "specs" tab...



I will update this top post as new information becomes available.
A couple of comments:

As the poster boy for this problem (and solution), I might disagree with the notion that you have to buy your DynoJet from FuelMoto. I didn't... I bought mine direct from DynoJet, the inventors of the PVCX... and the guys creating all the updated firmware. They're in Las Vegas... a warm climate like my own. DynoJet has many tunes and is constantly coming up with new ones. And yes, they obviously have a dyno. Does this mean that FuelMoto is a bad choice? Of course not. They're back east, if I lived there who knows, I might want their tunes, since it would better match my climate. My point is: any statement that you should only buy your DynoJet from FuelMoto is simply not true. You have to decide which one you think has the advantage for you.

The second comment is that things have changed. I now believe you want to get your PVCX empty when you buy it. Apparently Indian is changing the ECU's constantly. DynoJet discovered this after shipping my first run PVCX. They discovered that some bikes weren't getting the same benefit, owing to ECU changes.

Their solution is brilliant. You purchase and attach the PVCX to your bike... read the ECU (VIN and other info also gets recorded). You then upload the file online, and it creates a list of all available tunes for your specific bike. Your friend may see a different list, owing to different ECUs. You download those files and put them on your PVCX. You can do this all online in the middle of the night, without having to call them during the day. Great for our overseas friends.

To illustrate the flexibility, I downloaded them using a Mac, transferred them to a USB drive and then used a PC to copy them to the PVCX, using Windows File Explorer. All of this was done without being near the bike. Yes, you could do all of this on a PC, I'm just demonstrating that if you don't have a PC, you could do that part at a library or internet cafe. Maximum flexibility.

So to conclude, this notion that you want the files pre-loaded is IMO, no longer an advantage. You'll end up erasing them as I had to, in order to get a complete PV_INFO file to send to DynoJet or FuelMoto. Once I did that, I discovered that the updated file for a completely stock Scout 60 made my bike run a lot better than it has in the last 10 months I've been using the PVCX. Things are ever changing, we need to expect to have to change methods as they do...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,483 Posts
This chart makes me wonder if the (attractive) wider torque curve of the 60 will be changed much once the tune for the top-end is altered. OR, is it a much hotter little engine once the throttle de-tune is sorted out. Performance throughout the power band, plus a wider power band is a very good thing! Also, does the 'missing' gear in the 60 really matter to overall street-able performance?
Thanks for the work on this topic! I am trying to decide which would be my best choice overall. It is looking like the 60 will way outperform once tuned unless I am missing something. Maybe the 6,000 rpm torque drop-off will remain more pronounced on the 60?
Throttle response is more linear and predictable. I'm also using less twist to get a particular speed, which explains the 2MPG increase.

As for the missing gear, if someone didn't tell you, I don't think you'd notice. It hasn't affected me... I'm in 4th around town most of the time anyway. 5th is something I do at 50mph. FWIW, I've ridden both and the addition of the gear wasn't what I was expecting... it was spaced somewhat different than I was expecting. When on it hitting in the freeway, I was barely into their 5th before going to 6th. It wasn't that it was better or worse, just different. Now for the record, Hatt completely disagrees with me on the 6 gears...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,642 Posts
Thanks for your $.02, all info is good and worth considering. Did look at FuelMoto & DynoJet, and FuelMoto advertises theirs $20 cheaper, not sure if it is a short lived promo, or will be all the time price. Does DynoJet price match? Maybe by the time I am ready, closer to end of warranty, the price will come down even further, or have more tunes to make our bikes even greater.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,483 Posts
Thanks for your $.02, all info is good and worth considering. Did look at FuelMoto & DynoJet, and FuelMoto advertises theirs $20 cheaper, not sure if it is a short lived promo, or will be all the time price. Does DynoJet price match? Maybe by the time I am ready, closer to end of warranty, the price will come down even further, or have more tunes to make our bikes even greater.
I don't know if they price match or not... FuelMoto is a vendor so they may not intentionally compete with them. When I bought mine there was a promo at $50 off... one of the reasons I bought it there. The other was because they spent time on the phone with me. I also like how much info is accessible on their website... some places seem to want to hide things from you. Personal peeve of mine... it's about me the customer, not you the company. Make it work for me...
 

·
Bronze member
Joined
·
2,391 Posts
The "dirty little secret" is that the Scout 60 runs a setup, from Polaris, on the ME17 ECU that detunes it.

Those of you that have "rat raced" both the 60 and the 69 are well aware of the fact that both have the same power delivery up to around 6000 rpm. After which, the 69 does make more power. The reason why is that the 60 is programmed to partially close the throttle butterfly in the upper RPM range.

The solution is to acquire a PVCX and flash your 60 with the appropriate DynoJet Scout 60 tune. Appropriate means the file that matches your bikes' mod combo. You will instantly have identical performance of a 69 running your same mod combo..

So…you're saying that you Dyno a Scout 60 and make it perform better than a Scout that has also been Dyno'd? Color me doubtful.
 

·
Founding member
Joined
·
507 Posts
Very interesting. Thanks all for the information.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,483 Posts
So…you're saying that you Dyno a Scout 60 and make it perform better than a Scout that has also been Dyno'd? Color me doubtful.
I will predict this, and we'll wait for the final results as to whether or not higher compression and better torque can offset 133cc. Here it is... I expect a 69 to produce between 5-8 HP more. Just a hunch based on several factors. We won't know until it's proven, but the dyno guys that have had both while developing tunes have said that the 60, configured properly is with a couple of HP of the 69. So, allowing for the minor improvements a 69 could get with a better tune, I arrive at 5-8HP.

In time we may finally know, but I think that focus misses the point. The fact that we're splitting hairs means the two will be so close, it becomes academic. Even with 5-8 HP, the riders will become the determining factor...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
135 Posts
ALLRIGHT - Meggie got hold-o-me... We can have only one thread but she can move it.. I'll ask here what I am about to ask at the top of the top post..

Where do yall want this thread?
right here is fine with me since its in the performance section. but it also is kinda specific to the sixty, so i guess it could go there just as well. or do we really need separate 60 and 69 threads?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
372 Posts
At the time of this post, Fuel Moto is developing Scout tunes. Do yourself a favor - call Fuel Moto before buying a PVCX (any application) as a FM PVCX will have all available FM tunes and all available DynoJet tunes to pick through, as well as the free FM custom tune service.
Fuel Moto told me that- close to a year ago when I bought one from them. I've detailed my experience with them before and won't get into it again, but I'd suggest you just go through Dynojet at this time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
135 Posts
Fuel Moto told me that- close to a year ago when I bought one from them. I've detailed my experience with them before and won't get into it again, but I'd suggest you just go through Dynojet at this time.
but if you buy through fuel-moto dont you get access to both companies tunes? i thought that was the advantage.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,483 Posts
but if you buy through fuel-moto dont you get access to both companies tunes? i thought that was the advantage.
Quantity isn't what I'm after... the single perfect tune is what I want. I only need one.

So who do you think understands the DynoJet more... the guys that made it? The guys that keep rewriting the firmware? The guys that actually make and sell dynamometers?

IMHO, what FuelMoto needs to do, is list on their website, all the tune combinations they have, so everyone can easily see them. Drive demand. Playing their cards close to the vest may not be the best approach. In addition, they should make tunes available at a charge if someone bought their DynoJet somewhere else. Motorcycle dealers are selling DynoJets now. The market that actually bought directly from FuelMoto will be astronomically small by comparison to DynoJet direct sales and the hundreds (or is it thousands) of dealers all over the country. Why ignore that market? Sorry, my business degree just grabbed the keyboard.

In addition, DynoJet has dealers all over the country with dynos that custom tune. Trask Performance, which makes a great intake, is right here in my home town. They custom tune on-site for the DynoJet.

I think the decision is a lot more complicated than gee, if I buy from FuelMoto I get more tunes. You don't need more, you need the perfect one... AND you need it updated constantly as more ECU variants are released by Indian. That's a monumental task... and will take some serious resources.

In the end, this is America... land of choices... I'm glad we get more than one...
 

·
Diamond member
Joined
·
9,096 Posts
Quantity isn't what I'm after... the single perfect tune is what I want. I only need one.

So who do you think understands the DynoJet more... the guys that made it? The guys that keep rewriting the firmware? The guys that actually make and sell dynamometers?

IMHO, what FuelMoto needs to do, is list on their website, all the tune combinations they have, so everyone can easily see them. Drive demand. Playing their cards close to the vest may not be the best approach. In addition, they should make tunes available at a charge if someone bought their DynoJet somewhere else. Motorcycle dealers are selling DynoJets now. The market that actually bought directly from FuelMoto will be astronomically small by comparison to DynoJet direct sales and the hundreds (or is it thousands) of dealers all over the country. Why ignore that market? Sorry, my business degree just grabbed the keyboard.

In addition, DynoJet has dealers all over the country with dynos that custom tune. Trask Performance, which makes a great intake, is right here in my home town. They custom tune on-site for the DynoJet.

I think the decision is a lot more complicated than gee, if I buy from FuelMoto I get more tunes. You don't need more, you need the perfect one... AND you need it updated constantly as more ECU variants are released by Indian. That's a monumental task... and will take some serious resources.

In the end, this is America... land of choices... I'm glad we get more than one...
I agree.. but would like to offer some info to your logical thought process.
Beside the chance of having the "perfect tune" being higher when you have more tunes to pick from I recently met, and came into info I recently learned Is this. I spoke to the guys (Rodney Thrum and Tom Morgan), that actually co-developed many of the DJ maps for (most recently) Indian's DJ tunes, and was a driver in Victories tunes. That bit prompted more questions from me. In the end I came away with this..
DJ works with FM. DJ likes to source multiple tuners tunes, for exactly the reasons you post. The perfect tune, regional atmospheric relevance. I also came away with that they understand they may know the most about their tuners and its software and all the like, but they know nothing about the machines, or the machines software until they come to guys line the aforementioned. So in our case, they came to the Polaris guru, Tom Morgan of TMR racing.
So, it's really a giant collaboration. Bottom line. I don't think there is a right, or wrong way to buy a DJ..
besides in reality, the perfect tune, is not on it when you buy it.. its on it only after you had your bike, tuned buy your guy, in your hood with your input. That's where the perfect tune is.
And guys, I can say this with much experience..the difference between a great canned Map, and one you have made for your bike,, is night and day.. everytime, and is worth the extra cost, hands down.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,483 Posts
I agree.. but would like to offer some info to your logical thought process.
Beside the chance of having the "perfect tune" being higher when you have more tunes to pick from I recently met, and came into info I recently learned Is this. I spoke to the guys (Rodney Thrum and Tom Morgan), that actually co-developed many of the DJ maps for (most recently) Indian's DJ tunes, and was a driver in Victories tunes. That bit prompted more questions from me. In the end I came away with this..
DJ works with FM. DJ likes to source multiple tuners tunes, for exactly the reasons you post. The perfect tune, regional atmospheric relevance. I also came away with that they understand they may know the most about their tuners and its software and all the like, but they know nothing about the machines, or the machines software until they come to guys line the aforementioned. So in our case, they came to the Polaris guru, Tom Morgan of TMR racing.
So, it's really a giant collaboration. Bottom line. I don't think there is a right, or wrong way to buy a DJ..
besides in reality, the perfect tune, is not on it when you buy it.. its on it only after you had your bike, tuned buy your guy, in your hood with your input. That's where the perfect tune is.
And guys, I can say this with much experience..the difference between a great canned Map, and one you have made for your bike,, is night and day.. everytime, and is worth the extra cost, hands down.
Logical thought process? Oh man, I'm feel like I'm being set up here... :)

I don't disagree with anything you said. DJ and FuelMoto work together, they have to, and that's a good thing. And yes, with bikes run by software and computers these days, you want to get cooperation from the manufacturer if you can. Otherwise, it's a much longer path through trial and error... but you can still get there.

The manufacturers are in a pickle. OTOH, they would like their bikes to run the way the engineers envisioned it. OTOH, government regulations want the bike running lean and poorly. It's a fine line they walk, and I'm sure there's a lot of: "here's the deal, but you didn't hear it from us" going on.

And yes, a custom tune will always be the most amazing thing. Ask the 111 owners... each bike puts out completely different HP and needs a completely different tune... it's like drawing straws. At this point we don't know how much variance there is between Scout engines. I'd be curious to know. The trick is, you just have to settle on your intake and pipe changes (if any). You don't want to keep paying for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
583 Posts
I got mine from Fuel Moto because it was cheaper but went to dynojet for the tunes because I could just download them.

Fuel Moto makes you send them a message then await a response.

Ain't nobody come time for that.

Once I upgrade my exhaust I might try the Fuel Moto way and see what they tell me.
 
1 - 20 of 512 Posts
Top