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Discussion Starter #1
I have an 18 Springy with Indian S1 & 2 with Freedom Performance headers. The FP's wrecked my low end torque and the local dyno house was able to get about 70% of it back but I still feel like its missing a lot of bottom end juice.

I'm considering replacng the whole exhaust system with a BAssani or RUSH system in the hopes of regaining the power/torque.

Q: do consider these full exhaust systems "tuned" for the correct amount of back pressure needed to restore the torque I lost? (yes i expect to tune it once the new exhaust is installed).

thoughts?
 

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First of all, ALL the "true dual" systems from Freedom, Rush and Rinehart are not well designed systems, and torque and power loss can be expected.

Bassani is currently the only company making a well designed true dual system.

Rinehart has just recently came out with their newly designed "Slimline Dual" system for the TS111 which by the incorporation of a 'crossover box" removes much of the disadvantage of those poorly designed "true duals" as mentioned above.

RACNRAY
 
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Discussion Starter #3
First of all, ALL the "true dual" systems from Freedom, Rush and Rinehart are not well designed systems, and torque and power loss can be expected.

Bassani is currently the only company making a well designed true dual system.

Rinehart has just recently came out with their newly designed "Slimline Dual" system for the TS111 which by the incorporation of a 'crossover box" removes much of the disadvantage of those poorly designed "true duals" as mentioned above.

RACNRAY
thanks! so I'm guessing you've played with at least one of these and have some anecdotal opinions or have you been able to do a tune on one of these and seen an improvement over the "others". do you have a 2:1 favorite? Performance is my main concern. I actually would like it a little quieter but thats not my goal.
 

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Sounds a little strange to me. "Wrecked my low end torque", in no way describes the effects that are usually associated with these pipes. I have experimented a bit with them... The anecdotal torque loss may be overstated and inaccurate. I do not make any claims about how great the pipes may be, but I would prefer to put the matter in perspective and in accurate terms. Back pressure (or reduction of), is primarily created in your mufflers, not head pipes. You can add your choice of mufflers to the true duals. Back pressure does not create nor reduce torque per se. Scavenging is an effect that can change your performance... This is created at the usual cross-over point in a V-twin exhaust. The Freedom Duals lack this...
To quantify the loss takes some Dyno time and careful comparisons. My own experience is that the torque reduction is very small, almost not noticeable. The biggest issue is with your engine tune adjustments and cylinder balancing when set up with the duals and no crossover. This is the only reason I no longer run the Freedoms. This is also most likely what is being termed " torque loss" here. It can be tuned and brought to a minimum and performance can be excellent with the duals.
 

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On the other hand, if it's backpressure you want, just core out potatoes and stuff them up your tailpipes - use ever smaller corings until you get what you're looking for !


I am not responsible for damages caused by potatoes or opinions about exhaust systems that involve the phrase "back pressure".....
 

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So the story goes like this, did a S1&2 with a de-catted factory pipe all in the same whack. Put it on the dyno right away and the results were jaw dropping. Power was bonkers. Hated the sound. Some dude says the Freedom headers sound amazing, get some. So I did. When I say it wrecked the low end torque, I don’t give a flip about what you say, it was substantial power suck, I must have lost 20%, I mean it was way worse than factory. Like I said above, another ($350) trip to the dyno got the bulk of it back but honestly it’s still lacking. Hoping different config will help and looking for a solid recommendation, not doubts or criticism. Thanks.
Sounds a little strange to me. "Wrecked my low end torque", in no way describes the effects that are usually associated with these pipes. I have experimented a bit with them... The anecdotal torque loss may be overstated and inaccurate. I do not make any claims about how great the pipes may be, but I would prefer to put the matter in perspective and in accurate terms. Back pressure (or reduction of), is primarily created in your mufflers, not head pipes. You can add your choice of mufflers to the true duals. Back pressure does not create nor reduce torque per se. Scavenging is an effect that can change your performance... This is created at the usual cross-over point in a V-twin exhaust. The Freedom Duals lack this...
To quantify the loss takes some Dyno time and careful comparisons. My own experience is that the torque reduction is very small, almost not noticeable. The biggest issue is with your engine tune adjustments and cylinder balancing when set up with the duals and no crossover. This is the only reason I no longer run the Freedoms. This is also most likely what is being termed " torque loss" here. It can be tuned and brought to a minimum and performance can be excellent with the duals.
 

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Factory tunes are not the best. When they install a stage 1 and 2 I believe they reflash the ECU. Your best bet is a PVCX and a new tune. BTW, the Indian stage 1 slip-on are no slouch
 

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So the story goes like this, did a S1&2 with a de-catted factory pipe all in the same whack. Put it on the dyno right away and the results were jaw dropping. Power was bonkers. Hated the sound. Some dude says the Freedom headers sound amazing, get some. So I did. When I say it wrecked the low end torque, I don’t give a flip about what you say, it was substantial power suck, I must have lost 20%, I mean it was way worse than factory. Like I said above, another ($350) trip to the dyno got the bulk of it back but honestly it’s still lacking. Hoping different config will help and looking for a solid recommendation, not doubts or criticism. Thanks.
I am just letting you know that the tune is at the core of your issue. Best of luck with resolving that. Please don't take offense to my input, it is not intended to be critical of you personally.
I run the Libertyville X-pipe on my highest performance bike now, and I currently have gutted OEM headers on the others with a variety of the performance slip-ons. I used Craig Bennet and the FuelMoto remote tuning service on mine. Results are good.
 

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I have an 18 Springy with Indian S1 & 2 with Freedom Performance headers. The FP's wrecked my low end torque and the local dyno house was able to get about 70% of it back but I still feel like its missing a lot of bottom end juice.

I'm considering replacng the whole exhaust system with a BAssani or RUSH system in the hopes of regaining the power/torque.

Q: do consider these full exhaust systems "tuned" for the correct amount of back pressure needed to restore the torque I lost? (yes i expect to tune it once the new exhaust is installed).

thoughts?
True Duals kill low-mid torque due to lack of scavenging and not lack of back-pressure (which kills performance.) Bassani TD is better due to equal lengths it maintains. Rush is no better then Freedom. None of these are the ideal exhaust.

I have Freedom TD's on mine currently and hate them. Heat reduction is no better then Fuelmoto's Jackpot and I prefer Jackpot's sound. I have been able to develop a decent tune with them though. But, that tune/performance is not in the same league as the ones I developed for the stock header with CAT and the Jackpot header.

I will be getting some Rinehart's soon to test. From the tune I've already done, I expect them to tune up well, though I doubt they will beat the factory stock with CAT or the Fuelmoto Jackpot header.
 

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True Duals kill low-mid torque due to lack of scavenging and not lack of back-pressure (which kills performance.) Bassani TD is better due to equal lengths it maintains. Rush is no better then Freedom. None of these are the ideal exhaust.

I have Freedom TD's on mine currently and hate them. Heat reduction is no better then Fuelmoto's Jackpot and I prefer Jackpot's sound. I have been able to develop a decent tune with them though. But, that tune/performance is not in the same league as the ones I developed for the stock header with CAT and the Jackpot header.

I will be getting some Rinehart's soon to test. From the tune I've already done, I expect them to tune up well, though I doubt they will beat the factory stock with CAT or the Fuelmoto Jackpot header.
Thanks Craig! It will be interesting to see some numbers on these various combinations once each can be fully and properly tuned. I had the chance to test run a 111 dyno-tuned bike today equipped with the Jackpot and the 558 cams. It was quite impressive for a 111 and would run alongside my 116 through at least a portion of the power band. It could even outpull the bigger engine under certain circumstances.
 

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Thanks Craig! It will be interesting to see some numbers on these various combinations once each can be fully and properly tuned. I had the chance to test run a 111 dyno-tuned bike today equipped with the Jackpot and the 558 cams. It was quite impressive for a 111 and would run alongside my 116 through at least a portion of the power band. It could even outpull the bigger engine under certain circumstances.
Nice! Performance wise, the 558 in the TS111 is close to the 116". The 585 and the Stage 3 cams are almost at par with it.
 

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Nice! Performance wise, the 558 in the TS111 is close to the 116". The 585 and the Stage 3 cams are almost at par with it.
The only thing that keeps nagging at me with just putting in 585 or S3 in a 111 is the rods. Is the feeling here that it is the higher compression, and not necessarily higher HP, that caused Indian to upgrade the rods in the 116? I would like to hear some opinions on this. Thanks.
 

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The only thing that keeps nagging at me with just putting in 585 or S3 in a 111 is the rods. Is the feeling here that it is the higher compression, and not necessarily higher HP, that caused Indian to upgrade the rods in the 116? I would like to hear some opinions on this. Thanks.
Very good point. Pushing the higher limits of stock conrods cannot be all that safe or smart. It is much more than just the added compression ratio stresses. Once you have handled one of the very slender stock conrods, it can make you wonder how they withstand the forces involved.
 

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The only thing that keeps nagging at me with just putting in 585 or S3 in a 111 is the rods. Is the feeling here that it is the higher compression, and not necessarily higher HP, that caused Indian to upgrade the rods in the 116? I would like to hear some opinions on this. Thanks.
The upgraded connecting rods is why I went 116 kit over a 585 cam. I can can always upgrade to a 585 cam later if I want to add more power, not that its needed.
 

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The only thing that keeps nagging at me with just putting in 585 or S3 in a 111 is the rods. Is the feeling here that it is the higher compression, and not necessarily higher HP, that caused Indian to upgrade the rods in the 116? I would like to hear some opinions on this. Thanks.
If you had the ability to analyze the total stresses within the system that ultimately must travel through the connecting rods, I believe the largest factor to be the power pulse after ignition. It is NOT the compression stroke, (affected by compression ratios), that provides the biggest vibration and imparts the largest forces into the conrods. This Power stroke force is roughly equal and linear with the horsepower developed in the engine. Vibration forces are also present in that system and for the most part represent wasted power that must be dissipated as heat, noise and mechanical vibration. These wasted forces are obviously considerably less than total output. HORSEPOWER is a viable measure of conrod loading - and consequently can be used as the major design metric.
 

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torque actually, but apart from that, great explanation.
Thanks. Not an engineer here, just a logical and experienced hands-on gearhead.

torque = force x distance
horsepower = force x distance x speed (rpm)

Whatever the metric, it boils down to the forces the engine can generate and just different ways to represent those in some meaningful and consistent way. Most of us are more familiar with horsepower I think.
 
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