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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
When changing oil on your Indian, Victory, Harley, or any bike with a spin on filter, you might consider pre-filling the filter so all the paper is saturated, then spin it on. With Indian, now add your 5 1/2 quarts of oil. Depending on filter size, about 6 to 8 oz. of extra oil has been added, and it won't hurt a thing. It might come in handy in hot weather if your engine is subject to high speed riding or sitting in traffic. During hot summer months your engine might burn off that much between changes, but the correct volume has been maintained. Just a thought for the tech sessions.

DP
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Flipping the filter to the horizontal position in order to spin it on would cause it to lose more that half of that oil before it got spun. Mean old Mr. Gravity wins again.
Let me clarify, you don't fill the filter to running over, just enough to saturate the paper medium. The paper soaks up the oil and with the regular fill, that's the extra amount the engine gets, approx. 6 to 8 oz. .
DP
 

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When changing oil on your Indian, Victory, Harley, or any bike with a spin on filter, you might consider pre-filling the filter so all the paper is saturated, then spin it on. DP
As a professional high performance motorcycle engine builder and owner of AMS-MotoMachine.com, we ALWAYS pre-filling the filter, just enough to soak the filtering media (on a horizontal filter, fill the center hole about 3/4 full and let the oil soak in before installing the filter). Here's why we recommend this: The filtering media fiber bond it stronger when wet than dry. We manufacture hydraulic valve lifters, 9 out of 10 times when there is a "defect" its caused by a tiny oil filter media fiber in the check valvem from a "dry" filter install. Bosch did a lot of research on premature fuel injector & pump failures - and found the same similar problem - dry media breaking loose as soon as the high psi liquid hits it. Bosch issued a tech service bulletin, back in the 80's to always pre-fill / soak the filter media.
The second reason we recommend the practice is to reduce the time an engine sees little or no oil flow upon initial start up, after an oil & filter change - not a huge worry, but it reduces the risk of wear over the lifetime of the engine.
Some folks will ask why their OE service manual doesn't recommend this. The answer is simple: OE manufacturers go to great lengths to make maintenance of their products appear as simple and inexpensive as possible. I've been in the engine reman biz for 52+ yrs, and the majority of professional techs I've encountered, always pre-fill the oil filter. Will the world end if you do not do so? Obviously not. Will it harm your engine to pre-fill the engine? No, quite the opposite. As for the small amount of extra oil: its a non-issue. Use common some sense: Pre-fill the filter with an ounce or two of oil from the 5-1/2 quarts you'll use to fill the crankcase. :)
 

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When changing oil on your Indian, Victory, Harley, or any bike with a spin on filter, you might consider pre-filling the filter so all the paper is saturated, then spin it on. With Indian, now add your 5 1/2 quarts of oil. Depending on filter size, about 6 to 8 oz. of extra oil has been added, and it won't hurt a thing. It might come in handy in hot weather if your engine is subject to high speed riding or sitting in traffic. During hot summer months your engine might burn off that much between changes, but the correct volume has been maintained. Just a thought for the tech sessions.

DP
Back when I turned wrenches for a living, 855 Cummins engines, the lube guys ALWAYS had to fill the oil filter and the spin on luber-finer filter when doing an oil change. Getting caught putting a dry filter/luber filter on was an immediate walk to the door with your tools. I do the same thing today on the cars, pick-up and #37. If it's a vertical filter I fill it up, if it's a horizontal filter it gets enough oil in the filter to make sure the media is soaking wet with oil.

DRY STARTS SUCK!!

.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
As a professional high performance motorcycle engine builder and owner of AMS-MotoMachine.com, we ALWAYS pre-filling the filter, just enough to soak the filtering media (on a horizontal filter, fill the center hole about 3/4 full and let the oil soak in before installing the filter). Here's why we recommend this: The filtering media fiber bond it stronger when wet than dry. We manufacture hydraulic valve lifters, 9 out of 10 times when there is a "defect" its caused by a tiny oil filter media fiber in the check valvem from a "dry" filter install. Bosch did a lot of research on premature fuel injector & pump failures - and found the same similar problem - dry media breaking loose as soon as the high psi liquid hits it. Bosch issued a tech service bulletin, back in the 80's to always pre-fill / soak the filter media.
The second reason we recommend the practice is to reduce the time an engine sees little or no oil flow upon initial start up, after an oil & filter change - not a huge worry, but it reduces the risk of wear over the lifetime of the engine.
Some folks will ask why their OE service manual doesn't recommend this. The answer is simple: OE manufacturers go to great lengths to make maintenance of their products appear as simple and inexpensive as possible. I've been in the engine reman biz for 52+ yrs, and the majority of professional techs I've encountered, always pre-fill the oil filter. Will the world end if you do not do so? Obviously not. Will it harm your engine to pre-fill the engine? No, quite the opposite. As for the small amount of extra oil: its a non-issue. Use common some sense: Pre-fill the filter with an ounce or two of oil from the 5-1/2 quarts you'll use to fill the crankcase. :)
Thanks Tom - AMS. Nice job describing the rest of the story, and clarifying that a little extra oil isn't going to hurt the engine. Excellent info for this Tech Q and A thread!
DP
 

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BTW, 6 to 8 ounces is a LOT of oil - think about the old 5-1/2 oz to 6 oz Coke bottles; 8 oz is 1/2 a soda can ( or 1/2 pint) - the 111 oil filter doesn't require anywhere near that amount to soak the media.
A little goes a long way. 1 to 2 oz is good.
LOL ... most pro-techs will admit that, when it comes to oil, a little 1/2 ounce spill always appears to be a gallon-size oil slick :)
 

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During hot summer months your engine might burn off that much between changes, but the correct volume has been maintained. Just a thought for the tech sessions.
Ah...no. You should be loosing next to nothing with these motors unless you have a problem.
 

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It never occurred to me that anyone was putting dry filters on anything ever...

For many reasons, if you're doing that...stop it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
BTW, 6 to 8 ounces is a LOT of oil - think about the old 5-1/2 oz to 6 oz Coke bottles; 8 oz is 1/2 a soda can ( or 1/2 pint) - the 111 oil filter doesn't require anywhere near that amount to soak the media.
A little goes a long way. 1 to 2 oz is good.
LOL ... most pro-techs will admit that, when it comes to oil, a little 1/2 ounce spill always appears to be a gallon-size oil slick :)
Tom-AMS you are absolutely correct on the amount of oil the Indian brand filter holds. I apologize for being way off on my 6 to 8 oz. statement. I changed my Chieftain oil today and the filter holds exactly 2 oz. So by pre-lubing the filter, a complete oil change is 5 qts. 18 oz.
DP
 

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As a professional high performance motorcycle engine builder and owner of AMS-MotoMachine.com, we ALWAYS pre-filling the filter, just enough to soak the filtering media (on a horizontal filter, fill the center hole about 3/4 full and let the oil soak in before installing the filter). Here's why we recommend this: The filtering media fiber bond it stronger when wet than dry. We manufacture hydraulic valve lifters, 9 out of 10 times when there is a "defect" its caused by a tiny oil filter media fiber in the check valvem from a "dry" filter install. Bosch did a lot of research on premature fuel injector & pump failures - and found the same similar problem - dry media breaking loose as soon as the high psi liquid hits it. Bosch issued a tech service bulletin, back in the 80's to always pre-fill / soak the filter media.
The second reason we recommend the practice is to reduce the time an engine sees little or no oil flow upon initial start up, after an oil & filter change - not a huge worry, but it reduces the risk of wear over the lifetime of the engine.
Some folks will ask why their OE service manual doesn't recommend this. The answer is simple: OE manufacturers go to great lengths to make maintenance of their products appear as simple and inexpensive as possible. I've been in the engine reman biz for 52+ yrs, and the majority of professional techs I've encountered, always pre-fill the oil filter. Will the world end if you do not do so? Obviously not. Will it harm your engine to pre-fill the engine? No, quite the opposite. As for the small amount of extra oil: its a non-issue. Use common some sense: Pre-fill the filter with an ounce or two of oil from the 5-1/2 quarts you'll use to fill the crankcase. :)
does switching to redline full synthetic 2050 void a warranty??
 

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As a measure one of my current rides has oil enter the filter by the time I fill the crankcase with oil because the filter location is lower than the full mark on the engine. By the time I tighten up and check everything the media has been soaked in oil. I'm thinking the Indian 111 filter almost as lower as the drain, so 5.5 US quarts would (likely) back fill the filter. I could understand the ease and thought of adding oil to a vertical application as the contact area would be higher than the drain point.
 

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As a measure one of my current rides has oil enter the filter by the time I fill the crankcase with oil because the filter location is lower than the full mark on the engine. By the time I tighten up and check everything the media has been soaked in oil. I'm thinking the Indian 111 filter almost as lower as the drain, so 5.5 US quarts would (likely) back fill the filter. I could understand the ease and thought of adding oil to a vertical application as the contact area would be higher than the drain point.
Good point.
 

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As a measure one of my current rides has oil enter the filter by the time I fill the crankcase with oil because the filter location is lower than the full mark on the engine. By the time I tighten up and check everything the media has been soaked in oil. I'm thinking the Indian 111 filter almost as lower as the drain, so 5.5 US quarts would (likely) back fill the filter. I could understand the ease and thought of adding oil to a vertical application as the contact area would be higher than the drain point.
The oiling system in engines are not quite as simple as some make think. And passages the oil must travel to reach the filter go thru the oil pump and often extend higher than the oil filter - so one should not count on gravity / oil level to fill a filter, even if the filter appears to be as low or lower than the crank case oil level, especialally in dry or semi-dry sump engines. It may not sufficiently pre-fill the filter. For example, the 111's oil pump is located at the far rear of the transmission. The engine has a semi-dry sump, with most of the oil at the rear, in a baffled chamber. A small amount of "drain back oil resides forward of this area, in the shared crank and trans area. (This is why the 111 has two drain plugs. The oil pump is driven by a plastic gear off of the clutch hub on the left side of the engine. Unlike a Harley which is a ful-dry sump, with an easily accessed oil pump, the 111's oil pump can only be accessed by removing the engine from the frame, removing the heads and jugs, all side covers, and splitting the cases - practically a complete disassemble of the engine. ( there's a reason ' pointing this out, which I'll come back to later) The pump is actually two gerotor pumps. One set of its gerotors scavenges oil from the crank & tranny side, returning it to the baffled sump area at the rear. The other set of gerotors is the pressure side of the pump that supplied oil under pressure to the engine bearings, bushings & lifters, etc. The pump has a pick-up tube ( the oil inlet from the sump area) that is near the bottom rear of the case. There is an oil inlet tube (called a snorkel tube in the IMC factory manual) which extends nearly to the TOP of the transmission case. Oil enters pick up tube is drawn up into the pump, must flow around the gerotor teeth & grooves, and then exits horizontally thru a passage in the left side of the case. From there the oil travels thru multiple drilled passages to the filter and engine bearings. The level of oil in the sump, after refilling during an oil & filter change may not be sufficiently high enough to make the oil flow up thru the pump and all the passages to the oil filter, with enough volume to safely wet all the filter media. One way to test this would be to leave the filter off and fill the crankcase - if at least 2 oz comes gushing out the center hole for the oil filter, your method is sound. :) Meanwhile, old habits are hard to break: IMHO, it's easier to just pre-fill the filter and know for sure its media is soaked. :)
BTW, here's why I mentioned the difficulty of accessing the 111's oil pump: From recent experience, I think some of the "Clacker" engines have defective or poor performing scavenger gerotors in their oil pumps. I'll post up a different thread, to explain in more detail.

Respects,
Tom -AMS
ww.amsmotomachine.com
 

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My extended warranty specifies that I must use the recommended oil by the manufacturer, but I'm not sure about the regular factory warranty.
one of the basic premises of the Mag-Moss Act says that if IMC requires you to use their oil and/or filter to keep from voiding the warranty, then they must furnish you free oil and free filters... And if they will not fix a warranty claim because you used a different brand, they must prove damage was caused by the off-brand oil or filter - and not some other defect.
for example, a burnt valve would not be caused by using the redline oil. so they'd have a difficult time voiding a warranty claim. But a slipping/burnt clutch might not be so clear cut, because the friction modifiers in full-syn Redline may not meet the specs for semi-syn Indian oil. Redline would be the ones to ask.
Extended warranties are not "warranties" but rather more like a insurance contract - they can specify any terms folks are willing to agree to... :)
Respects
Tom - AMS
www.automotivemachine.com
 

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I respect your opinion Tom AMS and the next time I drop the oil I'll go filter first on my non Indian ride, The outflow is a measure I can relate to by eye. For kicks I have 1/2 filled a horizontal application and spun the filter on before oil leaked out as an experiment to see if the start up sound or oil pressure light would continue for a shorter duration which it did not.
 

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So where is the worry in an engine that has no lifters? Would the filter particle be large enough to not simply go through the oil passages and be filtered out when it gets back to the filter? I don't disagree that wetting the filter first is a good idea, I just wonder how much of a problem dislodged filter particles can be, particularly in an engine that has no lifters. Yes, I know the TS111 has lifters.
 
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