[Berserker]

20 years ago they said the average CEO stays 18 months. I don't know if that is still true.

Harley is a large company with a long legacy, I am not a doom and gloom guy. I do think they will have pains and changes. But again keep in mind how big they are.

The need newer riders, but also alienating some old riders with all the big screens. Indian is selling to the same market as Harley. Big touring bike are the bulk of harley sales, and I suspect indian too.

So if Harley suffers loss of interest Indian will too. What the answer is, to get the newer rider is I do not know. They are not into. Better family men, selling bike to get 4 seater sxs. Maybe raised to be scared of bikes.

 

[Berserker]

When I started at my company, lots of people had bikes 25 years ago. Now most do not. Maybe the old guys that retired still do. But I work with guys making lots of money, and they are not buying bikes.

 

[Baron58]

One possibility would be for the new CEO to cut their biggest money loser completely out of the company. Studebaker did this back in the mid-1960s when they shut down their automobile production. The company itself continued on, profitably for several decades. Harley-Davidson could continue on, as a much smaller entity, but possibly more profitable company for years into the future as some sort of a branding unit?

The Harley brand is part of the issue. It is very polarizing. You have the die-hard Harley Loyalist and the people who hate them. It's a huge issue for them.

Harley built up for years of the outlaw biker image, it was ingrained in the collective consciousness through movies and television. It worked for them for a while especially for the traditionalist and Baby boomer generations. So much the Harley was paralyzed to move forward in design and offerings because of their core customer base rejecting anything but the old inferior design and culture.

This put Harley behind the 8-ball and they are paying for it. Harley tried to appeal to the younger generation with electric and woke policies. But the younger generations view of the Harley brand is tainted as an old man knuckle dragging biker gang riding inferior bikes.

Indian being fairly new and gone for such a long time, doesn't have the baggage and negative polarizing brand recognition that Harley does.

The only way Harley will regain success is a much smaller company.

Indian is a very small and tiny company (Polaris division) thus the small dealership footprint. Most people think Indian is a big company like Harley, Polaris is and is bigger. But Indian Motorcycle is a tiny company, and they are successful because they don't overexpose themselves.

 

[Hijinx1812]

This should be interesting, if nothing else…

 

[PeacePipe]

Understand that a public company is driven by its stockholders and governed by its board. Boards are supposed to represent the stockholders. Boards are also the collective conscience of the organization, they can tap the brakes when needed. However, the board cannot really execute anything or operate the machine on a daily basis. The CEO is supposed to deliver a plan to the board for achieving whatever goal they set in place and execute that plan. Plan fails --> CEO gets fired. Plan works --> CEO gets rewards.

Getting a long-term CEO is nice, but short-term CEOs are often necessary. They make the cuts, make hard decisions, and move on or get moved along. Once the company is achieving what the board wants, they usually quietly shift to a long-term CEO with a steady hand.

It is the CEO that decides where the markets are and how to convince people to give up their money.

The Harley brand is part of the issue. It is very polarizing. You have the die-hard Harley Loyalist and the people who hate them. It's a huge issue for them.

Harley built up for years of the outlaw biker image, it was ingrained in the collective consciousness through movies and television. It worked for them for a while especially for the traditionalist and Baby boomer generations. So much the Harley was paralyzed to move forward in design and offerings because of their core customer base rejecting anything but the old inferior design and culture.

This put Harley behind the 8-ball and they are paying for it. Harley tried to appeal to the younger generation with electric and woke policies. But the younger generations view of the Harley brand is tainted as an old man knuckle dragging biker gang riding inferior bikes.

Indian being fairly new and gone for such a long time, doesn't have the baggage and negative polarizing brand recognition that Harley does.

The only way Harley will regain success is a much smaller company.

Indian is a very small and tiny company (Polaris division) thus the small dealership footprint. Most people think Indian is a big company like Harley, Polaris is and is bigger. But Indian Motorcycle is a tiny company, and they are successful because they don't overexpose themselves.

These are correct statements.
Harley worked in the shadows of Indian for many of their early years (including losing lawsuits / money to Indian for patent violations). Where HD stood apart was in creating and selling a lifestyle / image that went hand in hand with their bikes. Their branded merchandise supported what expenses the motorcycles sales couldn't cover. Then they benefitted from Hendee and Hedstrom leaving Indian and the sale of the company to DuPont Motors, who stabilized the finances. Despite Indian introducing the Chief in 1940, Harley had a HUGE upswing in sales to the government during WWII, where Indian wasn't nearly aggressive enough to match HD. All of this lead to the sale and eventual financial downfall of Indian. As stated above, Polaris raised Indian from the ashes in 2011. The history of both companies spans many wars, economic depression / recessions, changes in ownership, and shifting demographics.

We're just now recovering form a global pandemic (you can debate the origins and effects of that for yourselves) and are seeing all-time lows in the birthrate in developed Countries (that in and of itself limits the number of potential / future riders that ANY company can bet their future on).
As stated above, the same "loyalists" who've committed to / identified with the HD lifestyle are creating a rift in the customer base that HD seems unable to adjust to. Add that to a smaller pool of potential customers and HD has to change their product line (and pricing) as well as ridding themselves of unprofitable practices and products. The very strength of HD (their enormous dealership network) is at risk, as we've already seen. I personally believe BOTH companies missed a huge opportunity to grow through the pandemic - it was the PERFECT time to market riding to a society encouraged to isolate and maintain distance between people, but that's no longer here nor there.

HD needs to shut down or sell off the LiveWire Division, develop an affordable entry level series for young riders that the Nightster has failed to attract, and offer at least a few liquid-cooled models (as Indian has done) to keep loyalists looking for something better / less antiquated and limited, or risk losing everything to their competitors who are in a better place.

Maybe the new CEO will be just what the company needs. IF he can bring some financial stability to the company / stop the bleeding (of cash), that would open up more opportunities for HD long term - whether it be under current ownership or not. There are a LOT of employees (direct, and in the dealership chain) that have a LOT at risk.
Desperate times require desperate measures. Sometimes a radical change is needed.
If you're having trouble seeing the future, you just might need new glasses.

 

[Bird Dog]

The Harley brand is part of the issue. It is very polarizing. You have the die-hard Harley Loyalist and the people who hate them. It's a huge issue for them.

Harley built up for years of the outlaw biker image, it was ingrained in the collective consciousness through movies and television. It worked for them for a while especially for the traditionalist and Baby boomer generations. So much the Harley was paralyzed to move forward in design and offerings because of their core customer base rejecting anything but the old inferior design and culture.

This put Harley behind the 8-ball and they are paying for it. Harley tried to appeal to the younger generation with electric and woke policies. But the younger generations view of the Harley brand is tainted as an old man knuckle dragging biker gang riding inferior bikes.

Indian being fairly new and gone for such a long time, doesn't have the baggage and negative polarizing brand recognition that Harley does.

The only way Harley will regain success is a much smaller company.

Indian is a very small and tiny company (Polaris division) thus the small dealership footprint. Most people think Indian is a big company like Harley, Polaris is and is bigger. But Indian Motorcycle is a tiny company, and they are successful because they don't overexpose themselves.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. Harley-Davidson changing their marketing strategy to attract buyers from a segment of the population that I don't think will ever be interested in riding anything motorcycle related, regardless of what brand it is, made no sense. Like the, Bud light fiasco, what Harley-Davidson did is a very good example of, "Go Woke go broke."

 

[TigerGA]

I still believe bringing in someone as CEO who has a background in running a pizza business and apparently has no connection to motorcyles, riding, PowerSports, etc., is just repeating the same mistakes already made, but expecting a different result. I realize in many instances a CEO doesn’t have to be ingrained with the product or service the company is selling - you don’t have to be a pilot to successfully manage an airline.

However, HD is a different animal. An airline doesn’t have a cultural following, no one gets “Delta“ tattooed on their arm because it’s their favorite airline. I really believe HQ senior mgmt and their Board of Directors are out of touch with their customers and the motorcycling community. So HD will do what it did last time - they’ll roll a Street Glide in front of their HQs, have someone from the motor clothes show up & dress the new CEO in HD gear, and he‘ll sit on the bike for a photoshoot. That’s as close as he’ll come to riding a motorcycle.

 

[Bird Dog]

Does anyone remember Vaughn Beals?

 

[Berserker]

The Harley brand is part of the issue. It is very polarizing. You have the die-hard Harley Loyalist and the people who hate them. It's a huge issue for them.

Harley built up for years of the outlaw biker image, it was ingrained in the collective consciousness through movies and television. It worked for them for a while especially for the traditionalist and Baby boomer generations. So much the Harley was paralyzed to move forward in design and offerings because of their core customer base rejecting anything but the old inferior design and culture.

This put Harley behind the 8-ball and they are paying for it. Harley tried to appeal to the younger generation with electric and woke policies. But the younger generations view of the Harley brand is tainted as an old man knuckle dragging biker gang riding inferior bikes.

Indian being fairly new and gone for such a long time, doesn't have the baggage and negative polarizing brand recognition that Harley does.

The only way Harley will regain success is a much smaller company.

Indian is a very small and tiny company (Polaris division) thus the small dealership footprint. Most people think Indian is a big company like Harley, Polaris is and is bigger. But Indian Motorcycle is a tiny company, and they are successful because they don't overexpose themselves.

Indian is pretty much selling the same bikes Harley is. Heavy touring bike and big cruisers.

It seems young people are not into it. Scared of bikes maybe. Maybe want smaller bikes maybe better fathers.

I don't see bikes at work like I did 25 years ago. I don't know what's in their garage.

What Harley riders themselves have going for them is the amount of used bikes at a good price and lots of supply. I think I see more young people at the bars on Harleys.

I think this may be good for Harley because these people may buy new someday.

Indian does not have this yet. You can't pick up a nice challenger for $5k

What does the next generation want, if anything is the question.

 

[DyingBreed]

I still disagree. This purely a business and nothing more. Knowing how to, or having experience riding a motorcycle has nothing to do with the overall operations of a business. HD didn't fall into this mess overnight, it took years and years of mismanagement meaning it goes back to Willie G. and further. These were guys that were ingrained in the culture but mostly invested in selling the BRAND rather than the PRODUCT. So they grew and grew to global recognition only to realize they still aren't profitable then cried for help. They reached out and specifically looked for business management with experience turning failing companies around and to some point were successful....for a moment.

I think the long running problem lies with the Board of Directors. The CEO of a company is mainly a face with money and connections and they can't act without approval from the Board. The fact that they keep going thru CEOs is a sign that the Board itself has bigger problems.

 

[Berserker]

It is a global billion dollar industry, Need to navigate tariffs, ect. I would be curious how much is done by an CEO. Are they really contributing to the new line up or letting people involved do it?

 

[djespi1]

I got no sympathy for HD. They're kinda in trouble as it is, but after reading about this new guy, [a golf pro, lol] HD may NOT be around too much longer, period, and I got no sympathy for em. I did not care for the Harleys before, and there is nothing that is gonna change my mind in the future. I'm now Indian all the way and am dam glad I made that decision. Dave!!!

I’m with you 100%. I love my Indian Challenger. I couldn’t care less if that other “motorcycle company” goes under. They forgot about the working class a long time ago. Now we forget about them.

 

[djespi1]

Without HDMC there’d probably be no IMC. So your favorite past time would be Pickleball lol.

Hmm, without AMC there’d be no HD. Let that sink in.

 

[Berserker]

Hmm, without AMC there’d be no HD. Let that sink in.

Rubber mounted motor, shark nose, and few other things developed under them, Some even question the time it took to develop the evo.

 

[Triumph900]

Like the Hummer 125cc 2 stroke

And who doesn't like a good Hummer...

 

[Mongo like candy]

HD did sell a 5% stake in their financial business to Private Equity firm KKR and Wall Street firm PIMCO. That was a 5 billion dollar infusion of cash to work with. I hope they use it wisely.

They'll probably use the money to develop a solar powered touring trike that is lubricated with unicorn tears. They have developed a steady line of unprofitable crap, save their mainstay bikes, for a while now, Street 500-750, Livewire, Pan-Tranny whatever that overweight, overpriced "Adventure"POS is called. I wish them well, but like England, I don't see how they survive.

 

[Berserker]

. I wish them well, but like England, I don't see how they survive.

Ha they are still selling a gobbs over Indian. I don't think they are going to go out of business, to only get bought out 10 times every so many years. Will they go through changes maybe. Hopefully they won't get down to 7 dealers in the state of WI. But some may close. Making them build these mega stores, has hurt dealers and continues. I wish Indian would use their existing polaris network. But maybe that is why the polaris dealer by me built a big mega store and is now selling Indians.

I think letting dealers decide size would be better.

But the bikes they are selling are pretty much what Indian is selling. American big heavy cruisers and touring bikes, with emphasis on touring.

I'd like to see them go back to a standard Road King, instead of these fancy ones. Glad to see they had some chrome on touring bikes this year. The black has been over done.

Their sportser S is 10k, with inflation it does sorta keep up with the old sportser. Be nice to see a cheaper American air cooled bike, but that ship may have sailed.

I was disappointed the pan am didn't do better. I'd like to see an American enduro. Maybe have it evolve into lighter touring bike. Which I think there may be a market for. Not sure harley riders will embrace. But these harley riders will be dead at some point

Lot of the old timers want something without the big screen. On harleys you can turn it off. I have not figured out how to turn it off on Indian yet.

 

[D-Eagle]

I ride with mostly Indian and Harley guys. The Harley guys keep asking for full liquid cooled like the Indians have. Some of the die-hard Harley guys flipped to Indian because of the Powerplus engine. The rest will always ride HD but are hoping for a liquid cooled engine, not just partially cooled. But anything not HD is still not considered.

HD has the engine already in the Pan American. Why are they so stubborn to not put it in a Touring bike?

 

[HiDesert]

I keep reading the "management is management, doesn't matter what the company does" comments, and thinking about Norton... and BSA... and AJS... and Matchless... and Ariel....

There were other factors, but management that thought motorcycles weren't much different from garden tools is a theme I read over and over again regarding the decline of the British motorcycling industry.

 

[DyingBreed]

I keep reading the "management is management, doesn't matter what the company does" comments, and thinking about Norton... and BSA... and AJS... and Matchless... and Ariel....

There were other factors, but management that thought motorcycles weren't much different from garden tools is a theme I read over and over again regarding the decline of the British motorcycling industry.

....Other factors such as, they weren't selling, they got bought out, and they just overall sucked, lol. You don't need to be emotionally invested in a product to know how to research and sell it. HD needs a numbers guy, not a Brand loyalist.