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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
2 years ago I bought a new 2017 Springfield and have put about 18000 miles on her since. In those 2 years I have added a fair amount of accessories and performance upgrades to it. Since then, some of the "performance upgrades" I have removed. I have never had my bike on a dyno and my opinions are all based on in the seat feel and observations.
In order listed below are my performance upgrades in order, and opinions of each;
1. Swapped stock filter for K&N - no observed change
2. Installed V&H Classic exhaust - much deeper and louder sound (actually screwed with my tinnitus) but no detectable performance improvement.
3. Purchased a dynojet PVCX from Fuelmoto and installed one of their tunes. Could definitely feel a performance improvement
4. Swapped the V&H exhaust with Indian Stage 1. Not as deep of a note and a little quieter, but still sounded good.
5. Installed Indian Stage 1 round A/C - Did not detect a performance improvement and noticed more valve train noise.
6. Had stage 2 cams installed and an Indian stage 2 tune. Nice loping idle sound. More power, especially detected during hard acceleration > 3K RPM. Better highway speed power. With this tune I did detect some clattering at mid range RPM's
7. Loaded a tune from Craig which eliminated the clatter and had even better performance.
8. Removed Stage 1 round AC and reinstalled stock bedpan with K&N filter. Reduced valve noise and same felt performance.
9. Removed Stage 1 exhaust and reinstalled stock mufflers. "MAYBE" slight performance reduction, but very marginal if any felt. Stock pipes do sound better with stage 2 cams than I recall them sounding with stock cam.

These are just my opinions and observations. I don't mean to create a dispute. But, just wanted to share my personal "opinions".
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Almost forgot that between #3 & #4, I installed a decatted head pipe. I didn't really do it for heat reduction, since that is not to much of a problem on my Springfield. However, before I could really determine if if made much of an impact on heat reduction, I pulled it and reinstalled stock head pipe due to the tinnier, metallic, and louder sound.
 

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2 years ago I bought a new 2017 Springfield and have put about 18000 miles on her since. In those 2 years I have added a fair amount of accessories and performance upgrades to it. Since then, some of the "performance upgrades" I have removed. I have never had my bike on a dyno and my opinions are all based on in the seat feel and observations.
In order listed below are my performance upgrades in order, and opinions of each;
1. Swapped stock filter for K&N - no observed change
2. Installed V&H Classic exhaust - much deeper and louder sound (actually screwed with my tinnitus) but no detectable performance improvement.
3. Purchased a dynojet PVCX from Fuelmoto and installed one of their tunes. Could definitely feel a performance improvement
4. Swapped the V&H exhaust with Indian Stage 1. Not as deep of a note and a little quieter, but still sounded good.
5. Installed Indian Stage 1 round A/C - Did not detect a performance improvement and noticed more valve train noise.
6. Had stage 2 cams installed and an Indian stage 2 tune. Nice loping idle sound. More power, especially detected during hard acceleration > 3K RPM. Better highway speed power. With this tune I did detect some clattering at mid range RPM's
7. Loaded a tune from Craig which eliminated the clatter and had even better performance.
8. Removed Stage 1 round AC and reinstalled stock bedpan with K&N filter. Reduced valve noise and same felt performance.
9. Removed Stage 1 exhaust and reinstalled stock mufflers. "MAYBE" slight performance reduction, but very marginal if any felt. Stock pipes do sound better with stage 2 cams than I recall them sounding with stock cam.

These are just my opinions and observations. I don't mean to create a dispute. But, just wanted to share my personal "opinions".


What you observed is actually factual.

There are many propagated myths about performance products across the entire Auto/Truck/Motorcycle/ Tractor you name it industry.

Most assume that a factory version is poorly designed and needs improvement. When actually the exact opposite is true.

Engine manufactures have to try and make engines EPA compliant and fuel efficient, the last thing that is neglected is the air intake and exhaust systems. In fact they are as good as it can get. These manufactures use real engineering, flow testing, etc. Anyone can craft a beautiful air-cleaner and exhaust system.

One thing you will find with all these exhaust and intake companies is all the claims of improved torque, horsepower, etc. Yet they have ZERO evidence to back it up NONE. How would you know of these great performance gains without actually measuring it, and if you did, then publish the data. Some will publish data, but that data has other modifications like cams, tunes, etc.

But many customers will swear buy these claims because they feel it. It's called confirmation bias. When you are expecting a changed based on marketing hype or opinions, many times you will be tricked into thinking it is actually true. Others will call it placebo effect. For example you have whisper quiet exhaust pipes, then throw on some super duper power blaster pipes. Since you feel the sound waves and noise there is a impression that the bike is faster and has more power. Think about the time you drove that high end luxury sedan and looked down and the Speedo and said holy crap I didn't realize I was going that fast. Its the same thing, the lack of sensation made you thing you were going slower.

If you go to fuel motto's website they will show you many dyno charts on the 111 engine. Stock, Stock with a improved Tune, Intake and Exhaust of various types. What you will see is the only improvement gained, was the tune. The pipes and intake made no real difference.

Fuel Motto and Lloydz have commented that the best numbers they saw on a stock bike, was the stock header pipe with CAT and factory slip ons.


The other group will argue, well Indian sells stage one intake and exhaust. If they don't people will buy aftermarket. In fact Indian says buying their air-cleaner will result up to a whopping 3% increase in max HP. That's a big 2-3 HP. The HP is more likely to the leaner tune at wide open throttle. Yes the stage 1 tunes is leaner at max power. It has already been proven over and over again, the improved tunes are actually leaner on closed loop and that is where the power gains are noticed because Indians factory stock tune is too rich a wide open throttle.


If you look at Indians 111 intro video from 2014, one thing they mention is how they had to design a high flow air intake by using cold ram air from the frame o maximize air flow.

Unfortunately people will still believe that aftermarket exhaust and intakes give great power gains, just as some believe the earth is flat, the moon landing was faked.................
 

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Here's a few thoughts on some of your notes.

1 and 2. Pipes and AC generally have their effects at higher rpm and wide open throttle. They are all about air flow and the stock items are easily capable of sufficient flow for anything up to mid range torque requests. There is a highly developed process for tuning a pipe to a high performance motor but for daily riding any power increases are marginal. Dyno tests show some pipes to be detrimental to power, but the sound is the real goal for some riders.

3. One of the things that the PVCX does is adjust the throttle response. Sometimes what we experience as a power increase is really the power coming on sooner with less throttle twist. Our 'seat of the pants dyno' is often a right wrist dyno - or, in reference to points 1 and 2, a decibel dyno.

5. The high flow AC has no cover to damp down any noise coming from inside. Some people like the intake noise, some don't. One of my favorite hot cars back about 1970 had intake trumpets and no filters. The intake noise under wide open acceleration was intoxicating.

6. The stock cams and tuning show the torque curve starting to flatten around the 3,500 rpm range, then it steepens again. This can sometimes feel like a flat spot in acceleration. Different cams get rid of that and so they are happier to accelerate past the mid point.

As Baron58 points out, the only way to check power increase is on a dyno. The rider is notoriously bad at it.

Having said all that, we don't ride just to experience max top end power. The sound of the bike, the smoothness of a well running motor, the satisfaction of a machine that works, riding a good looking work of engineering, these are all more significant for most of us.
 

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I will have to agree with TomWood and Baron58 that it is refreshing to hear an un-biased and accurate review of performance products. For decades I have heard my friends and acquaintances gush over their new add ons and over exaggerate the performance. Sometimes I have even copied a purchase and been underwhelmed not unexpectedly. Seems if they spend a lot of money they have to be thrilled and exaggerate even if it flies in the face of proven facts. I currently have 5 bikes in my garage and figured that I have 2 1/2 exhaust systems for each so I have done my share of experimenting and supporting the performance industry myself !
 

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I will have to agree with TomWood and Baron58 that it is refreshing to hear an un-biased and accurate review of performance products. For decades I have heard my friends and acquaintances gush over their new add ons and over exaggerate the performance. Sometimes I have even copied a purchase and been underwhelmed not unexpectedly. Seems if they spend a lot of money they have to be thrilled and exaggerate even if it flies in the face of proven facts. I currently have 5 bikes in my garage and figured that I have 2 1/2 exhaust systems for each so I have done my share of experimenting and supporting the performance industry myself !

I don't think purchasers of these products necessarily are trying to be misleading, they just tend to think they feel or notice something that's not there. Pretty much like people who claim all the power increase with higher octane full in their cars.
 

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2 years ago I bought a new 2017 Springfield and have put about 18000 miles on her since. In those 2 years I have added a fair amount of accessories and performance upgrades to it. Since then, some of the "performance upgrades" I have removed. I have never had my bike on a dyno and my opinions are all based on in the seat feel and observations.
In order listed below are my performance upgrades in order, and opinions of each;
1. Swapped stock filter for K&N - no observed change
2. Installed V&H Classic exhaust - much deeper and louder sound (actually screwed with my tinnitus) but no detectable performance improvement.
3. Purchased a dynojet PVCX from Fuelmoto and installed one of their tunes. Could definitely feel a performance improvement
4. Swapped the V&H exhaust with Indian Stage 1. Not as deep of a note and a little quieter, but still sounded good.
5. Installed Indian Stage 1 round A/C - Did not detect a performance improvement and noticed more valve train noise.
6. Had stage 2 cams installed and an Indian stage 2 tune. Nice loping idle sound. More power, especially detected during hard acceleration > 3K RPM. Better highway speed power. With this tune I did detect some clattering at mid range RPM's
7. Loaded a tune from Craig which eliminated the clatter and had even better performance.
8. Removed Stage 1 round AC and reinstalled stock bedpan with K&N filter. Reduced valve noise and same felt performance.
9. Removed Stage 1 exhaust and reinstalled stock mufflers. "MAYBE" slight performance reduction, but very marginal if any felt. Stock pipes do sound better with stage 2 cams than I recall them sounding with stock cam.

These are just my opinions and observations. I don't mean to create a dispute. But, just wanted to share my personal "opinions".
I did essentially the same thing....but spent less $ and less switch-a-roo.

Cats removed, went back to stock mufflers, stage 1 AC, Indian cams, PV3 tuned by Craig.

Good sound without killing my ears. No heat on my leg, and decent performance...
Or so I thought until I rode a Scout which absolutely blows the doors off the big bike (if it had doors....).

Good write up.
Most "upgrades" are a total waste and driven by testosterone.

Sold big bike.

Ride much faster bike which costs less than half now!
 

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What you observed is actually factual.

There are many propagated myths about performance products across the entire Auto/Truck/Motorcycle/ Tractor you name it industry.

Most assume that a factory version is poorly designed and needs improvement. When actually the exact opposite is true.

Engine manufactures have to try and make engines EPA compliant and fuel efficient, the last thing that is neglected is the air intake and exhaust systems. In fact they are as good as it can get. These manufactures use real engineering, flow testing, etc. Anyone can craft a beautiful air-cleaner and exhaust system.

One thing you will find with all these exhaust and intake companies is all the claims of improved torque, horsepower, etc. Yet they have ZERO evidence to back it up NONE. How would you know of these great performance gains without actually measuring it, and if you did, then publish the data. Some will publish data, but that data has other modifications like cams, tunes, etc.

But many customers will swear buy these claims because they feel it. It's called confirmation bias. When you are expecting a changed based on marketing hype or opinions, many times you will be tricked into thinking it is actually true. Others will call it placebo effect. For example you have whisper quiet exhaust pipes, then throw on some super duper power blaster pipes. Since you feel the sound waves and noise there is a impression that the bike is faster and has more power. Think about the time you drove that high end luxury sedan and looked down and the Speedo and said holy crap I didn't realize I was going that fast. Its the same thing, the lack of sensation made you thing you were going slower.

If you go to fuel motto's website they will show you many dyno charts on the 111 engine. Stock, Stock with a improved Tune, Intake and Exhaust of various types. What you will see is the only improvement gained, was the tune. The pipes and intake made no real difference.

Fuel Motto and Lloydz have commented that the best numbers they saw on a stock bike, was the stock header pipe with CAT and factory slip ons.


The other group will argue, well Indian sells stage one intake and exhaust. If they don't people will buy aftermarket. In fact Indian says buying their air-cleaner will result up to a whopping 3% increase in max HP. That's a big 2-3 HP. The HP is more likely to the leaner tune at wide open throttle. Yes the stage 1 tunes is leaner at max power. It has already been proven over and over again, the improved tunes are actually leaner on closed loop and that is where the power gains are noticed because Indians factory stock tune is too rich a wide open throttle.


If you look at Indians 111 intro video from 2014, one thing they mention is how they had to design a high flow air intake by using cold ram air from the frame o maximize air flow.

Unfortunately people will still believe that aftermarket exhaust and intakes give great power gains, just as some believe the earth is flat, the moon landing was faked.................
What?!? The moon landing happened?

You're blowing my mind...
 

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On another thread, a coupe of guys flashed their bikes back to stock before taking the bikes back to the dealer for the gear position recall and noticed basically no a whole lot of difference. I take mine in Monday for the recall and will flash the bike back to stock. Will be interesting to see. I have had a "improved and versions of improved stock tunes since the bike had 300 miles on it. A 10K I will see what the old stock tunes was all about or not.
 

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On another thread, a coupe of guys flashed their bikes back to stock before taking the bikes back to the dealer for the gear position recall and noticed basically no a whole lot of difference. I take mine in Monday for the recall and will flash the bike back to stock. Will be interesting to see. I have had a "improved and versions of improved stock tunes since the bike had 300 miles on it. A 10K I will see what the old stock tunes was all about or not.
Flashing your bike back to the stock tune will not hide the fact that the ECM has been flashed with something other than the stock tune. Just sayin.
 

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Flashing your bike back to the stock tune will not hide the fact that the ECM has been flashed with something other than the stock tune. Just sayin.
At the dealer level they wouldn't know. But yes Polaris has tool that would know.
 

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Great write up and observations on your modifications!

The modifications to my 2016 Chieftain took a bit of unusual route. I live in Montana, made the deal on the stock Chieftain over the phone to Columbus, Ohio, late Fall 2019, the bike was then shipped to Sturgis. I had for a number of weeks consulted with a 'well known Indian tuner on this forum', for the goal I had, and parts to achieve those goals, I contacted Sturgis with the parts selection, the parts were then shipped to Indian of Sturgis and installed into the stock Chieftain.

Due to work and time constraints, I was unable to make a 400 mile round trip from Montana to Sturgis to ride or even see the stock Chieftain. I was notified when the upgrades were completed, I had requested time from work, drove my car to Sturgis, and rode a Stage 2 Chieftain back to Montana on a gorgeous 81 degree day -- the very next day just as the weather reports I followed the previous week came true -- Sturgis got hit with 8" of snow 10 hrs after I arrived home in Montana on the Chieftain. 3 days later Craig tuned the Thunder Stroke to optimize the Stage 2 modifications -- that was really the best upgrade to the project

I'm happy with the results of the modifications even tho I have no reference point to make comparisons, so I won't be taking parts off. The final upgrade 2 weeks ago was installation of NGK Iridium spark plugs, I'm shocked at the improvement they made to how the Thunder Stroke behaves and improved miles per gallon. Touring on this Chieftain so far has been a joy.
 

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Good info @Kost , I've been negligent by not adding Iridium spark plugs to the " performance mod recipes backed by data"..There is data to back up what you already know, concerning performance increases from a change to Iridiums. As to dynobutts, most all feel increases as well, from a change to Iridiums.. When dynobutts and dyno-meters agree, we usually have a "winner" of a component.

I wonder: On a stock 111, could punched plugs, K&N air filter, and Iridiums, push the performance of the Fuel Moto Improved stock tune to over 80hp/110lb.ft.Trq ? It would just take 2.5 hp and 2.5 Lb.Ft. more to hit 80/110.. (from FM's posted "Improved stock" dyno chart)... I bet they would..

If so, that's a stock 111 that performs better than the Indian Stage I, and approaches Indian Stage II "territory..
 

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Good info @Kost , I've been negligent by not adding Iridium spark plugs to the " performance mod recipes backed by data"..There is data to back up what you already know, concerning performance increases from a change to Iridiums. As to dynobutts, most all feel increases as well, from a change to Iridiums.. When dynobutts and dyno-meters agree, we usually have a "winner" of a component.

I wonder: On a stock 111, could punched plugs, K&N air filter, and Iridiums, push the performance of the Fuel Moto Improved stock tune to over 80hp/110lb.ft.Trq ? It would just take 2.5 hp and 2.5 Lb.Ft. more to hit 80/110.. (from FM's posted "Improved stock" dyno chart)... I bet they would..

If so, that's a stock 111 that performs better than the Indian Stage I, and approaches Indian Stage II "territory..
Yeah...
If you guys work hard enough, you might actually reach the hp of my 2015 Scout....but you'd still weigh hundreds more and lose the race...

;)

(just some ribbing, don't worry!)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Having said all that, we don't ride just to experience max top end power. The sound of the bike, the smoothness of a well running motor, the satisfaction of a machine that works, riding a good looking work of engineering, these are all more significant for most of us.
Well stated, and pretty much my point. For "ME", I kind of prefer the appearance and sound of the stock pipes, and the AC design compliments the bike. As stated, I do believe that Stage 2 cams and PVCX (with appropriate tune) made a great bike even a little better, and without altering the appearance of the original design. Unfortunately, Indian and most dealers will tell you that you need Stage 1 before installing Stage 2. However, one of the primary points I was trying to make is that the Stage 2 cams and a good tune through the use of a PVCX or PV3 will improve the bike even without changing intake, and or exhaust.
 

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FWIW I have a friend who’s been building HD engines for 40+ years. He had a guy bring in his Springfield to see if there was a way to get more hp/torque then what’s currently available. After taking apart and inspecting things his conclusion was that the stock heads don’t flow very well and that would limit gains. He also said that there isn’t much that can be done to help improve flow with the current head design. Maybe there will be aftermarket heads for them in the future or maybe some day PI will offer a performance head as an upgrade.
 

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FWIW I have a friend who’s been building HD engines for 40+ years. He had a guy bring in his Springfield to see if there was a way to get more hp/torque then what’s currently available. After taking apart and inspecting things his conclusion was that the stock heads don’t flow very well and that would limit gains. He also said that there isn’t much that can be done to help improve flow with the current head design. Maybe there will be aftermarket heads for them in the future or maybe some day PI will offer a performance head as an upgrade.
Yep pretty much has been the limit on the 111/116. Doesn’t matter how good the intake is. The limiting factor has always been the heads and that is true on many engines.
 
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