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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hello all!
I'm looking to do some serious engine upgrades to my scout soon. I want to make my bike MINE and a stock Scout will not do.

I am familiar with engines, and am a pretty good small engine mechanic, however this is my first motorcycle, so I am very new to this field.

I already have the stage 1 pipes on it with the ECU flash to accompany it from Indian. So now I have been swimming in research up to my neck about air intake upgrades and a fuel management system.

As far as Intake goes the Trask is obviously the only mass produced one being made at the time. But there is also the Warbonnet single which is a modified K&N and there is a Gentlemen making a newer K&N modified filter named George Hartzell. His looks a bit more put together and impressive and will be getting dynoed quite soon (I'm pretty partial to his design so far, theres no doubt in that). So at this point I guess I'm a bit stuck until I see those results. D: Also, I've ready about the speed density systems and the MAP sensors so I don't know if I can "safely" (that's a bit of a strong word for what I'm really describing) run an air intake with stage 1 pipes without a fuel managment system.

(I've included photos of Mr. Hartzell's intake [Has the external breather and black tubing] as well as the warbonnet, both of which require no modifications to make them fit under the tank)

Finally on to the PC5 vs. Dobeck debate. I am not planning on racing this bike, but I feel like the Dobeck would not be accurate enough to tune with the modified exhaust and air intake. And I DO plan on installing cams once they are available (I've heard some rumors for within the next 6 months). Though I don't want to go overboard with a PC5 and pay a TON of money for custom dyno tuning and map making

Any and all advice are welcomed!
Thank you so much and I'm still as excited to be apart of the Indian community as I was 7,000 miles ago!
 

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flying down the road trying to loosen my load.
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Hello all!
I'm looking to do some serious engine upgrades to my scout soon. I want to make my bike MINE and a stock Scout will not do.

I am familiar with engines, and am a pretty good small engine mechanic, however this is my first motorcycle, so I am very new to this field.

I already have the stage 1 pipes on it with the ECU flash to accompany it from Indian. So now I have been swimming in research up to my neck about air intake upgrades and a fuel management system.

As far as Intake goes the Trask is obviously the only mass produced one being made at the time. But there is also the Warbonnet single which is a modified K&N and there is a Gentlemen making a newer K&N modified filter named George Hartzell. His looks a bit more put together and impressive and will be getting dynoed quite soon (I'm pretty partial to his design so far, theres no doubt in that). So at this point I guess I'm a bit stuck until I see those results. D: Also, I've ready about the speed density systems and the MAP sensors so I don't know if I can "safely" (that's a bit of a strong word for what I'm really describing) run an air intake with stage 1 pipes without a fuel managment system.

(I've included photos of Mr. Hartzell's intake [Has the external breather and black tubing] as well as the warbonnet, both of which require no modifications to make them fit under the tank)

Finally on to the PC5 vs. Dobeck debate. I am not planning on racing this bike, but I feel like the Dobeck would not be accurate enough to tune with the modified exhaust and air intake. And I DO plan on installing cams once they are available (I've heard some rumors for within the next 6 months). Though I don't want to go overboard with a PC5 and pay a TON of money for custom dyno tuning and map making

Any and all advice are welcomed!
Thank you so much and I'm still as excited to be apart of the Indian community as I was 7,000 miles ago!
What's the "tiny filter" next to the trask/warbonnet?
 

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What's the "tiny filter" next to the trask/warbonnet?
The black setup is the Hartzell setup. The small filter is the crankcase breather. It vents to the atmosphere instead of taking all that blow by into the intake.
 
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flying down the road trying to loosen my load.
Joined
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2,649 Posts
Hello all!
I'm looking to do some serious engine upgrades to my scout soon. I want to make my bike MINE and a stock Scout will not do.

I am familiar with engines, and am a pretty good small engine mechanic, however this is my first motorcycle, so I am very new to this field.

I already have the stage 1 pipes on it with the ECU flash to accompany it from Indian. So now I have been swimming in research up to my neck about air intake upgrades and a fuel management system.

As far as Intake goes the Trask is obviously the only mass produced one being made at the time. But there is also the Warbonnet single which is a modified K&N and there is a Gentlemen making a newer K&N modified filter named George Hartzell. His looks a bit more put together and impressive and will be getting dynoed quite soon (I'm pretty partial to his design so far, theres no doubt in that). So at this point I guess I'm a bit stuck until I see those results. D: Also, I've ready about the speed density systems and the MAP sensors so I don't know if I can "safely" (that's a bit of a strong word for what I'm really describing) run an air intake with stage 1 pipes without a fuel managment system.

(I've included photos of Mr. Hartzell's intake [Has the external breather and black tubing] as well as the warbonnet, both of which require no modifications to make them fit under the tank)

Finally on to the PC5 vs. Dobeck debate. I am not planning on racing this bike, but I feel like the Dobeck would not be accurate enough to tune with the modified exhaust and air intake. And I DO plan on installing cams once they are available (I've heard some rumors for within the next 6 months). Though I don't want to go overboard with a PC5 and pay a TON of money for custom dyno tuning and map making

Any and all advice are welcomed!
Thank you so much and I'm still as excited to be apart of the Indian community as I was 7,000 miles ago!
@JayFL459 thought you would like a look see at this.
 

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The PCV being routed into the intake is potentially a good thing. It lowers internal air pressure in the crankcase; that means less air mass for the rotating and reciprocating assemblies to whip against. Yes, air has mass, and it has to be moved out of the way for those metal pieces to swing through, especially at 8300 RPM. Yes, it's small, but it's also "free."

If you're worried about oil contamination going into the throttle body, don't. Indian says you can go 10,000 miles (recommended) between oil changes. If the engine consumed oil through the intake, Indian certainly wouldn't recommend such a long duration between oil changes. I know, I know. That requires trust that Indian knows what it's talking about. I would think that they probably do; it would've only benefitted them (and their dealer network) if they had recommended a more frequent oil change schedule, say, every 5,000 miles.

TheDude
 

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The primary reason the crankcase is vented into the throttle body(ies) is for emission purposes. Performance H-D builders have vented their crankcase blow by externally for years. Not so convenient on the Scout for cleaning the filter. Super easy on my H-D as it's routed downward thru braided lines to a K&N type filter.
 

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Finally on to the PC5 vs. Dobeck debate. I am not planning on racing this bike, but I feel like the Dobeck would not be accurate enough to tune with the modified exhaust and air intake. And I DO plan on installing cams once they are available (I've heard some rumors for within the next 6 months). Though I don't want to go overboard with a PC5 and pay a TON of money for custom dyno tuning and map making
Between the Indian ecm and the ejk there is plenty of adjust for an accurate tune. I am running Bassani 2 into 2 and the Trask filter with the EJK and the bike performs very well. EJK will work very well with the Stage 2 cams, when they arrive in 20XX!! Rumor has it that the Victory engine which looks similar to the Scout engine has hotter cams, but that hasn't been released either!
 

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The PCV being routed into the intake is potentially a good thing. It lowers internal air pressure in the crankcase; that means less air mass for the rotating and reciprocating assemblies to whip against. Yes, air has mass, and it has to be moved out of the way for those metal pieces to swing through, especially at 8300 RPM. Yes, it's small, but it's also "free."

If you're worried about oil contamination going into the throttle body, don't. Indian says you can go 10,000 miles (recommended) between oil changes. If the engine consumed oil through the intake, Indian certainly wouldn't recommend such a long duration between oil changes. I know, I know. That requires trust that Indian knows what it's talking about. I would think that they probably do; it would've only benefitted them (and their dealer network) if they had recommended a more frequent oil change schedule, say, every 5,000 miles.

TheDude
Yes, venting the PVC into the engine intake is better for performance. Some motorcycles (one of mine) vent the PVC gases thru a reed valve preventing the reversing pulses of pressure from the crankcase and actually creates a vacuum in the crankcase increasing the HP of the engine.
 

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So you've verified this by doing a dyno run with and without the PCV system connected to the intake and can share the results? Sounds like pure speculation to me.
 

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All I have to share on the topic is the musings of an old man.....

Back in my Hot Rod years I spent hours pouring over hundreds of dollars worth of magazines.
I had absolutely no appreciation that I was dealing with an industry that advertises extensively.
All of those "tech articles" that I was pouring over didn't make it into those magazines by accident.

In retrospect, I can look back and honestly say that I got as much enjoyment out of doing the research as i ever got cranking the throttle.....funny....It has taken me a lot of years to realize and appreciate it.
 

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So you've verified this by doing a dyno run with and without the PCV system connected to the intake and can share the results? Sounds like pure speculation to me.
Breather System
Looking at the Scout Service Manual description of the crankcase emission control, it doesn't show a Positive Crankcase Ventilation valve in the crankcase vent system.
Vents directly to the air filter into the vacuum of the throttle body intake. When you remove the vent hose from the vacuum of the throttle inlet and vent to atmosphere thru a separate filter you increase the crankcase pressure and put a additional load on the engine. Adding a reed valve of the proper size or a PCV valve inline with crankcase vent line before venting to the atmosphere will again lower crankcase pressure and reduce workload on engine. If the Scout does indeed have a PCV valve that I can't find, then venting to atmosphere should be fine. Using the term PCV in my statement, when should have used the term Crankcase Vent Lines, My Bad.
 

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I was using PCV as a generic term. If you are accumulating more pressure in the crankcase than an open breather can equalize or remove than you have far greater problems than the lack of negative pressure on a PCV. I'll even bring up another point. All that oil that you are introducing back into the engine not only will restrict the throttle body and also pool in the intake manifold. It is also dirty. Why do we have air filters? To prevent dirt from entering into the cylinders and damaging components. Go hook a catch can up to your vehicle and run it from one oil change to another. You'd be surprised at the amount of accumulated oil in it. Oil, that otherwise would have entered the engine. Your statement that by adding a PCV to a breather hose and then venting to the atmosphere is wrong. A PCV needs negative pressure to operate properly. Without negative pressure the valve would just be a restriction in the breather system.
I'm guessing you don't have that proof that was requested above then?
 

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Do Krank Vents work? To go a step further here are dyno results using the device that was mentioned in the article you shared.
You're welcome.
 

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Do Krank Vents work? To go a step further here are dyno results using the device that was mentioned in the article you shared.
You're welcome.
Thank You, Not an expert on PCV valves admittedly, If the spring valve in the PCV restricts the flow without a vacuum source on the outlet then certainly not going to help the situation.(It doesn't the vacuum actually closes the normally open valve.) Perhaps all the logic behind gaining HP thru lowering crankcase pressure is generated by people profiting from selling products that claim to do that. Perhaps all the people installing vacuum pumps in race cars are wasting their time. The article you refer to admits the results are inconclusive and didn't fully meet the requirements of the manufacturer. The expected gains from the device I use is only = 2HP and the Dyno results in the article (Do Krank Vents work?) varied between runs by near that amount. I did run a catch bottle after the reed device before venting to the atmosphere for one year, even had a sight glass. After one year had zero accumulation so removed it. I Do agree I don't like recirculating vapors back into the intake though. So maybe I'm a sucker for a sales pitch, but still not convinced.
 

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The vapors being removed from the crankcase help to remove fuel contamination (which occurs with every engine). If the vapors are not removed, the oil can become acidic and affect the longevity of the engine. I'm not sure that a simple vent through a K&N filter is enough to remove the vapors. Before PCV valves, engines used road draft tubes; they did the same thing in that a low pressure under the car was used to cause a light vacuum in the crankcase (via the draft tube). The downside was that oil sometimes got sucked out and onto the roadways. Creating a vacuum in the crankcase is not a new idea.

TheDude
 

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Stationary equipment was set up the same way, no road draft, yet no problems. Engines have been vented in this manner for years. The only reason these vapors are being taken into the engine is so they are burnt to appease the EPA.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thank you everyone for your input! I believe I have since decided to go with the Hartzell Intake and a PCV to go along with my Stage 1 pipes (Which I will eventually open up and do a little bit of opening up). In a Dyno run with no tuning the Hartzell pretty well spanked the Trask so I'm pretty excited to get on board with it and see what this monster can crank out. Especially once I put some new tires on her, rather than those crap Kendas.
 

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My Ultra vents automatically....down the right side cover! [wacky] That started after I put an intake on her.

On serious note, do we have a source for the Hartzell intake?? I've been searching but have come up with nothing....thanks- JJ
 
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