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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm looking for advice on a tune (and I know nothing about getting one or installing one) for my Indian. I'm a novice on anything involving tuning a motorcycle. But having said that, I recently purchased a 2020 Indian Roadmaster Darkhorse and upgraded to Stage II cams, fuel mapping and exhaust by my local Indian shop. Despite all of this, I'm still disappointed at the step down I had from the torque/horsepower (and gut wrenching brute strength) that I had with my 2006 Triumph Rocket III T. I could roll that throttle, at any RPM, and it would respond in kind. This Darkhorse, even with the Stage II, really bogs and takes a lot longer to respond.

I've put about 3500 miles on the bike since the upgrade to Stage II (had Stage I installed at purchase) including a 2800 mile trip to the Hill Country (Twisted Sisters) from Eastern Tennessee. Great ride, VERY HOT, but lots of opportunities at varying speeds to confirm the drop of throttle response. Also, I'm DEFINITELY going back to a Russell Day Long saddle (that was not pleasant).

I'm a very large man, former collegiate OL, and at 320 lbs am much closer to a 2-up rider than single. Still yet, I purchased this bike, with this motor (116 ci), and the upgrades to not beat the Triumphs brute strength, but to lessen the drop off. Any advice is appreciated...
 

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I'm looking for advice on a tune (and I know nothing about getting one or installing one) for my Indian. I'm a novice on anything involving tuning a motorcycle. But having said that, I recently purchased a 2020 Indian Roadmaster Darkhorse and upgraded to Stage II cams, fuel mapping and exhaust by my local Indian shop. Despite all of this, I'm still disappointed at the step down I had from the torque/horsepower (and gut wrenching brute strength) that I had with my 2006 Triumph Rocket III T. I could roll that throttle, at any RPM, and it would respond in kind. This Darkhorse, even with the Stage II, really bogs and takes a lot longer to respond.

I've put about 3500 miles on the bike since the upgrade to Stage II (had Stage I installed at purchase) including a 2800 mile trip to the Hill Country (Twisted Sisters) from Eastern Tennessee. Great ride, VERY HOT, but lots of opportunities at varying speeds to confirm the drop of throttle response. Also, I'm DEFINITELY going back to a Russell Day Long saddle (that was not pleasant).

I'm a very large man, former collegiate OL, and at 320 lbs am much closer to a 2-up rider than single. Still yet, I purchased this bike, with this motor (116 ci), and the upgrades to not beat the Triumphs brute strength, but to lessen the drop off. Any advice is appreciated...

That's a V Twin for you. The Rocket is a much more efficient and more powerful motor than the Indian is. A BBK kit will add a tad more, but will never get to the Rocket levels unless you do crazy things like a blower, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
That's a V Twin for you. The Rocket is a much more efficient and more powerful motor than the Indian is. A BBK kit will add a tad more, but will never get to the Rocket levels unless you do crazy things like a blower, etc.
I guess I expected a more apples to apples with torque not being too out of line (20 lbs less than the Rocket as stock for both) and the supposed 17% increase in horsepower with Stage II. It may just be what it is. Still plenty to like about the Indian, just surprised on the drop-off of umph. Guess I put too much faith into Stage II helping. It was a modest change from the performance I had prior. I do like the sound much better, however.

Thanks Baron!!
 

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I guess I expected a more apples to apples with torque not being too out of line (20 lbs less than the Rocket as stock for both) and the supposed 17% increase in horsepower with Stage II. It may just be what it is. Still plenty to like about the Indian, just surprised on the drop-off of umph. Guess I put too much faith into Stage II helping. It was a modest change from the performance I had prior. I do like the sound much better, however.

Thanks Baron!!

Keep in mind Indian stage 2 cams with the Indian stock stage 2 tune is only 13% more horsepower and 7% more torque which is not much at all. A stock bike puts out about 75 HP at the wheel so an increase of 13% is only about 85 HP or an increase in 10 HP. Now that being said, a good custom tune could probably wring out another 3 to 5 HP.

On the stock bikes with a custom tune, HP was increased to about 3HP and torque about 7 ft pounds. So a custom PV3 tune from Fuel Motto, would make a big difference in overall feel and rideability. The Indian stage 2 tune is crap due tot he EPA standards it has to meet.

Inline engines like triumph and others are much more efficient in converting HP. And a 90 degree V Twin is not really a V Twin as the cylinders are 90 degrees from each other and that was done to increase the efficiency of the engine. Thus the high power 90 degree twins you see on many of the European bikes.
 

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You have a 116 with upgraded cams? Are you running the Indian tune or a tune from craigb with fuelmoto?
 

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2.3L with DOHC, vs a pushrod V-twin. Granted, a big pushrod V-twin. And then there's the matter of weight; the Rocket III has the advantage there too.

So overall, your take on the Roadmaster doesn't surprise me, even though my previous bike was a 955i Daytona and I love my Roadmaster which is bone stock, engine wise. What does surprise me is your saying the Roadmaster bogs and takes longer to respond. It might be interesting to get it on a dyno and test it there.
 

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I have to agree with Gardner. I have the same 116 engine upgrades with a PV3 Craig tune and it is better than the Indian tune but I just don’t feel the bike has the power I expected either. (Nothing to do with Craig). I own a Valkyrie and I don’t need a race bike but I would really like just a bit more HP. I need to do some research and find out the most cost effective way to get up above or close to 100hp.
 

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Let's look at the specs:
Triumph Rocket III Indian Roadmaster Darkhorse
127 HP 104 HP
145 TQ 120 TQ
648 lbs 868 lbs

Big difference in power and weight.
 

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120 lbs is alot! The Roadmaster is not a bike built for speed.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Let's look at the specs:
Triumph Rocket III Indian Roadmaster Darkhorse
127 HP 104 HP
145 TQ 120 TQ
648 lbs 868 lbs

Big difference in power and weight.
Stock torque on the 116 is listed at 126 lbs. That's without any tweaking. Was Stage II a waste of a couple grand? I didn't think the HP was even that high on the 116.

My Rocket was the tourer version and weighed in at 850 lbs. The HP & TQ listed are correct. I just thought I'd have more comparable roll-on at the throttle than some of the hucking & bucking I get, especeally at sub 2.5k RPM's.

No real reasonable options without going extreme? If it is what it is, I'm good. Just wanted to get some more grunt if it's possible and not cost prohibitive.

Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Keep in mind Indian stage 2 cams with the Indian stock stage 2 tune is only 13% more horsepower and 7% more torque which is not much at all. A stock bike puts out about 75 HP at the wheel so an increase of 13% is only about 85 HP or an increase in 10 HP. Now that being said, a good custom tune could probably wring out another 3 to 5 HP.

On the stock bikes with a custom tune, HP was increased to about 3HP and torque about 7 ft pounds. So a custom PV3 tune from Fuel Motto, would make a big difference in overall feel and rideability. The Indian stage 2 tune is crap due tot he EPA standards it has to meet.

Inline engines like triumph and others are much more efficient in converting HP. And a 90 degree V Twin is not really a V Twin as the cylinders are 90 degrees from each other and that was done to increase the efficiency of the engine. Thus the high power 90 degree twins you see on many of the European bikes.
This is my first V-Twin so probably a lot of "getting used to" with that. I just heard V guys talking all the time about their torque and never dreamed it was such a dramatic drop off. Previous rides were older Valkerie and Rocket, both tourers and enough torque to start off in 3 gear with zero throttle. No way I can do that on this Indian in 1st gear. Just different, I guess.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
2.3L with DOHC, vs a pushrod V-twin. Granted, a big pushrod V-twin. And then there's the matter of weight; the Rocket III has the advantage there too.

So overall, your take on the Roadmaster doesn't surprise me, even though my previous bike was a 955i Daytona and I love my Roadmaster which is bone stock, engine wise. What does surprise me is your saying the Roadmaster bogs and takes longer to respond. It might be interesting to get it on a dyno and test it there.
I agree. I'd love to get it tested.
 

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Not to be argumentative, but did you test ride the Roadmaster before you bought it?
Did you then get back on your Triumph and not like it anymore? I can't quite grasp where you're coming from...
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Not to be argumentative, but did you test ride the Roadmaster before you bought it?
Did you then get back on your Triumph and not like it anymore?
Triumph Rocket was totaled in a wreck. Triumph does not make a tourer anymore (been quite a few years). When I test drove the bike, same one I purchased, I did not push it at all. Was discouraged by Indian mechanic from doing so (even asked me to keep it in highway mode on the throttle). I assumed that the Stage II, along with 126 lbs torque, would get me close.

Also, I went in for the Challenger (water cooled) as it was nice torque and HP but went with the 116 Darkhorse Roadmaster as after adding up the amenities that were extras for the Challenger, it was still better appointed and cost less.

Bottom line, more I love about my Darkhorse than I dislike.Just really didn't imagine that with the Stage II upgrade that I would this far off from the Rocket III T. I can absolutely live without the power, but if I can improve, I'd like to do so. My gas mileage is a LOT better with the Indian although the Rocket was severely under geared (5 speed and RPM got up there at 70 mph).
 

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Stock torque on the 116 is listed at 126 lbs. That's without any tweaking. Was Stage II a waste of a couple grand? I didn't think the HP was even that high on the 116.

My Rocket was the tourer version and weighed in at 850 lbs. The HP & TQ listed are correct. I just thought I'd have more comparable roll-on at the throttle than some of the hucking & bucking I get, especeally at sub 2.5k RPM's.

No real reasonable options without going extreme? If it is what it is, I'm good. Just wanted to get some more grunt if it's possible and not cost prohibitive.

Thanks!
I quoted typical real numbers at rear wheel. I believe the factory 126 TQ is at the crank. A good tune does help with response and drivability, but it will not match what you had with the Triumph.

The bucking is the way Polaris did the timing table. It has several timing tables and the problem is the switching between the primary versus table 2, which is the idle table. The ECU switches between the two at low RPM's and the key is setting this switch over accurately. A single table for timing would have been 100% easier to set and a lot smoother in that area.

To get a torque monster I would go with the Indian V-twin Performance's 120" stroker, which is over 140 TQ and well behaved...in some part thanks to the tuner! LOL

With that said, my bike at 111" is a pretty good torque machine that delivers darn smooth power from idle through redline. But mine is dialed in pretty good.
 

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With that said, my bike at 111" is a pretty good torque machine that delivers darn smooth power from idle through redline. But mine is dialed in pretty good.
I guess that's why I'm confused... I have a bone stock 111, and I can roll through stop signs, and around corners in 2nd and even 3rd (usually by accident :cautious:) gear, and it doesn't bog or huck or buck in the least. It just muscles its way through. I did discuss the BBK with one of the Indian mechanics, and he conceded that the torque curve is moved to the higher rpm range with the 116, and most high-performance upgrades, by definition affect low-rpm power...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Not a chance in the slightest for me (stop signs scenario). I would come to obnoxious bucking halt if I did that without burning out the clutch. That is exactly why I'm asking what I'm asking. The Rocket just muscled out of sub 1000 RPM, in respectable time, like it was designed to do so. This bike is nowhere close to that. Maybe it should be, but for the numbers and the dollars, I didn't expect it would be so far off. It almost stalls on me when I move it back and forth, with little throttle, in my garage.

The torque band on this 116 is supposed to be max'd at 2800 or 2900 rpm, I believe. This was supposedly lower than previous years. It lopes nicely there at highway speeds (75 mph) which was not the case with the 5 speed Triumph.
 

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The biggest bang for the buck is the stage 1 setup. Next up is the cam. After this, it is marginal gains for the money.

I can have any engine configuration I want, but mine is the TS111 with a solid stage 1 selection of components and a stage 3 cam with a good tune. It is problem free and the behavior is excellent.
 
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