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You’d think the Lloydz Remote Tuning Centers would be the ones that would be selected to do the remote flashes. However, I called my dealer today, who is a RTC, and he didn’t know anything about it.
 

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If Indian dealers are going to do Lloyd's flash, why can't Polaris do it on warranty?
 

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If Indian dealers are going to do Lloyd's flash, why can't Polaris do it on warranty?
Because the Lloydz flash violates Federal EPA rules and voids the bikes warranty. Even Lloyd’s says as much. He basically says that it’s up to the dealers to decide whether or not to support you.

I am not against tunes, in fact support them 100%. But everyone just needs to know, no warranty if the mother ship discovers it and I was fine with that.

The reason these bikes tunes suck is they have to comply with EPA emissions

the big problem that Loydz is potentially getting into, is getting a number of dealers to participate in this means they are willingly violating federal emmisons laws and these are Polaris dealers which could drag Polaris into this. What they don’t want is to get noticed, which is exactly where they are going.

Now units like the PV3 are also illegal for road use, and that's why it says all over the box for off road racing only. But the end user (customer buys them) so the customer is the one on the hook for flashing street legal bike. But one of the reasons Harley got nailled by the EPA, is that dealerships were installing tuners on bikes and sending customers on their way riding a illegal bike on the road.


So the issue Indian may potentially have is if enough dealerships start doing this and it will get the attention of the EPA. Polaris will come out and say we totally don't authorize this and may be forced to pull the dealer license to protect mama Polaris
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Well Doggy, I'm Completely Stoked Now.... Soon after commenting on the You Tube video which was posted by Lloydz, I was sent a reply message to contact Amanda Bramble via email. She notified me that they would be at the Fort Worth Indian dealership in Texas which is their newest RTC. Lloydz will be at the Fort Worth dealership on November 5th & 6th to perform the CRT-V1 tune(s). We also confirmed a 12:30 appointment for Friday, November 5th for my 2020 Limited to recieve the secret sause.

Apparently, it seams that the twenty some dealerships they had mentioned in their video will be their newest Remote Tunning Centers (RTC) as well. I knew they would make it to north Texas sooner or later, I'm just happy it was sooner and not later. :cool:
 

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Because the Lloydz flash violates Federal EPA rules and voids the bikes warranty. Even Lloyd’s says as much. He basically says that it’s up to the dealers to decide whether or not to support you.

I am not against tunes, in fact support them 100%. But everyone just needs to know, no warranty if the mother ship discovers it and I was fine with that.

The reason these bikes tunes suck is they have to comply with EPA emissions

the big problem that Loydz is potentially getting into, is getting a number of dealers to participate in this means they are willingly violating federal emmisons laws and these are Polaris dealers which could drag Polaris into this. What they don’t want is to get noticed, which is exactly where they are going.

Now units like the PV3 are also illegal for road use, and that's why it says all over the box for off road racing only. But the end user (customer buys them) so the customer is the one on the hook for flashing street legal bike. But one of the reasons Harley got nailled by the EPA, is that dealerships were installing tuners on bikes and sending customers on their way riding a illegal bike on the road.


So the issue Indian may potentially have is if enough dealerships start doing this and it will get the attention of the EPA. Polaris will come out and say we totally don't authorize this and may be forced to pull the dealer license to protect mama Polaris
I’m really surprised that Lloydz is right out in the open with this. Sooner or later either Polaris is going to get involved or the EPA will and believe me you don’t them telling Polaris to start pulling warranties on noncompliance bikes.


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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
If a Indain dealership is a RTC for Lloydz or just suporrts an RTC for Lloydz, will that make the dealership responsible then for violating the warranty by selling the flash to the owner of the motorcycle?

I'm not going to get into a hugh debate over the legality of it all, seems to me just a few years back when I had my 16 springfield and I had Indian install the Lloydz 585 cams and then I performed the ARTS with Fuel-Moto via the PVCX & WBCX units and so there was a small rumbling of Indain owners of the same about voiding the motorcycle warranty but nothing ever came about it due to the fact an Indian dealership supported it. I can only asume that this is the same case with the dealerships that are supporting the Lloydz RTC for their CRT-V1 tuning of the Challenger. Besides my factory (Polaris) warranty will expire in December of this year and my extended warranty 100k miles/five years is thru a private company that Indain had sold to me to provide their extended service/warranty program for claims.
 

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If a Indain dealership is a RTC for Lloydz or just suporrts an RTC for Lloydz, will that make the dealership responsible then for violating the warranty by selling the flash to the owner of the motorcycle?

I'm not going to get into a hugh debate over the legality of it all, seems to me just a few years back when I had my 16 springfield and I had Indian install the Lloydz 585 cams and then I performed the ARTS with Fuel-Moto there was a small rumbling of the same about voiding the motorcycle warranty but nothing ever came about it due to the fact an Indian dealership supported it. I can only asume that this is the same case with the dealerships that are supporting the Lloydz RTC for their CRT-V1 tuning of the Challenger. Besides my factory (Polaris) warrnanty will expire in December of this year and my extended warranty 100kmiles/five years is thru a private company that Indain had sold to me to provide their extended service/warranty claims.
I’m not clear on the legality of it either. Harley dealers still will tune your bike but they don’t advertise it like Lloydz is doing. I have no problem with any dealerships tuning bikes I’m all for it but I agree with @Baron58 discretion is the key.


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If a Indain dealership is a RTC for Lloydz or just suporrts an RTC for Lloydz, will that make the dealership responsible then for violating the warranty by selling the flash to the owner of the motorcycle?

I'm not going to get into a hugh debate over the legality of it all, seems to me just a few years back when I had my 16 springfield and I had Indian install the Lloydz 585 cams and then I performed the ARTS with Fuel-Moto via the PVCX & WBCX units and so there was a small rumbling of Indain owners of the same about voiding the motorcycle warranty but nothing ever came about it due to the fact an Indian dealership supported it. I can only asume that this is the same case with the dealerships that are supporting the Lloydz RTC for their CRT-V1 tuning of the Challenger. Besides my factory (Polaris) warranty will expire in December of this year and my extended warranty 100k miles/five years is thru a private company that Indain had sold to me to provide their extended service/warranty program for claims.
Herk dealerships installing aftermarket parts on your bike in no way implies any Indian warranty.

Here is what Lloyd Greer has to say about it, and he is an Indian Dealer and knows what Polaris will and won't do. And is the one offering the flash. And what he says is 100% fact and true.

He posted this on the Lloyds Facebook group right about the time his flash came out.

Post:

Here's the correct answer. If you install ANY product on your Indian that has not been Vaidated by Polaris/Indian then yes it "Could" potentially void warranty. This goes for ALL aftermarket intakes and Exhausts as well as cams and big bore kits for sure. The reason is 2 fold, 1 validation makes sure the parts are up to standard for not failing over a extended period of time and conditions and 2 that they pass EPA compliance. A product that does not pass EPA compliance testing is deemed from the manufacturer to void warranty because federal government laws from 1979 state that it is illegal to remove or tamper with such emissions controlled items. Manufacturers have been forced to uphold these laws (to a certain extent) because they too can be deemed liable for helping or supporting an aftermarket in their ability of producing products that aren't compliant. The Magnuson-Moss act was started from basic items such as Oil, air cleaners and oil Filters while also having the ability to have your car serviced at other then a manufacturer dealership. This does not imply coverage of non emissions compliant products what so ever regardless of them being directly related to a failure or not. SO as far as Indian is concerned if it's not their product it can void warranty, primarily related to drive train components. If there is an aftermarket part that does happen to meet or pass emissions standards it still must have validation done by Polaris in order to be accepted as warranty able. I don't personally know of any product that has had this done for Indian.
So then I come in same this. If your that concerned about your warranty then make sure all your components are factory ones.
Our Challenger tune at this time of writing is not validated so there fore it can cause a voided warranty if your dealer throws you and us under the bus. Your dealer is the first Line in a warranty claim. He can ultimately decide weather he will void your warranty or not by either his ignorance or his dislike for someone like me. (Not necessarily saying that about your dealer just a general statement).
As also mentioned in this thread I state that if my parts have a failure I want to cover them and I personally review any claims that happen to come up. Now not all my parts have warranty coverage and the Challenger program would be one of those items.

Here is Lloyds CYA statement. LOL
For one it's a race tune not meant for highway riding. It was developed for the Bagger racing league and all you guys that want to go and race your stock bikes on pump gasoline in a controlled environment with appropriate speed rated tires and safety gear. I'm really surprised there wasn't more entries on the first race.
So I hope that clarifies your concerns and questions .



Basically the RTC tuning by dealerships is no way authorized or condoned by Polaris/Indian because it violates Federal Law. Same with the PV3/PVCX and all the other tuners So if your bike developed a electrical gremlin, ECU, or engine issues that the dealership could not address or want to, and Polaris gets involves and finds you you have a aftermarket tune. No Warranty for you!

So the answer is will your dealer cover you or turn you over to Polaris, as well have seen more dealers than not are incompetent's in the service dept. and may turn you over to Polaris.

That's why many dealers will not do RTC , because they don't want to fall under investigation and possible action by the EPA
 

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My bikes runs good so I’m pleased.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Like I said before, I'm not going to debate any of this, I don't care about who said what. I'm just going to get the tune for my bike and that's it. Besides, I'm not installing the tune to race or drive like an asshole on the streets. One of the main reasons as to why I want this tune is for better low speed handling due to the jerky/jumpy throttle control that comes with the crappy EPA stock tune Polaris/Indian has to imply for federal standards.

Besides, it now looks like Dynojet is finally jumping on the ECU reflash band wagon too . :p
 

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Like I said before, I'm not going to debate any of this, I don't care about who said what. I'm just going to get the tune for my bike and that's it. Besides, I'm not installing the tune to race or drive like an asshole on the streets. One of the main reasons as to why I want this tune is for better low speed handling due to the jerky/jumpy throttle control that comes with the crappy EPA stock tune Polaris/Indian has to imply for federal standards.

Besides, it now looks like Dynojet is finally jumping on the ECU reflash band wagon too . :p

Herk,

I have a PV3 on my 111. So not debating whether to do it or not, just putting out the info on warranty, etc
 

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And methinks that if you don't mess around with your stock cat/resonator after installing any "aftermarket" tune, you may be OK with EPA and the emission "cops", but as Baron said, even if you put after market mirrors on your bike which have not been endorsed and signed off by the mothership, you could be subject to a warranty denial. Lot of ambiguity and subjectivity here. The Lloydz tune is definitely an improvement over the stock tune....with or without your CAT. Bike is plenty fast for my driving style and needs....so I'm done with the perf mods to my skoot....until my bike is 100% out of warranty. By then, there should be some nice go-fast mods from the aftermarket. But as I get older, I find the need for speed and power gets less.....it's all about the quality of the ride and reliability of the bike. Wheels down!!!!!
 

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Interesting. And, interesting comments.

I have a somewhat different view on the above. If you take all the money spent on harleys (not all of this goes to harley, obviously) in the aftermarket it dwarfs the money spent/sent to the factory/corporate.

The cache of tuning, having a dealer experience that involves "hot rodding" and hanging out is something that has really kept Harley going despite having a product that is arguably decades behind competition.

LLoyds isn't Polaris - so, Polaris has no liability whatsoever. I'm going to guess dealers are independently owned (like Harley) so whatever goes on there.....Polaris is also insulated.

In my opinion - Polaris NEEDS this to compete with Harley over the long haul. After all, there are two parts to this hobby/pastime: 1) Riding and 2) Tinkering.

For those above the Mason/Dixon, #2 becomes really important given the 4-6 months of harsh winter.

I've been test riding and shopping for a bagger (and, just decided on Challenger after finally riding everything) and can tell you that aftermarket options were definitely something that entered the equation.

Just my 2p. I could be completely off base.
 

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Well Doggy, I'm Completely Stoked Now.... Soon after commenting on the You Tube video which was posted by Lloydz, I was sent a reply message to contact Amanda Bramble via email. She notified me that they would be at the Fort Worth Indian dealership in Texas which is their newest RTC. Lloydz will be at the Fort Worth dealership on November 5th & 6th to perform the CRT-V1 tune(s). We also confirmed a 12:30 appointment for Friday, November 5th for my 2020 Limited to recieve the secret sause.

Apparently, it seams that the twenty some dealerships they had mentioned in their video will be their newest Remote Tunning Centers (RTC) as well. I knew they would make it to north Texas sooner or later, I'm just happy it was sooner and not later. :cool:
I'll be down there the 6th for the same! Looking forward to it!
 

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... even if you put after market mirrors on your bike which have not been endorsed and signed off by the mothership, you could be subject to a warranty denial...
I assume you were making that comment as an over exaggeration and don't actually believe it's true ;)

If your aftermarket mirrors broke off and damaged something then no, that damage wouldn't be covered. But if you put after market mirrors on your bike and your starter failed, the starter would still be replaced under warranty :rolleyes:


Interesting. And, interesting comments.

I have a somewhat different view on the above. If you take all the money spent on harleys (not all of this goes to harley, obviously) in the aftermarket it dwarfs the money spent/sent to the factory/corporate.

The cache of tuning, having a dealer experience that involves "hot rodding" and hanging out is something that has really kept Harley going despite having a product that is arguably decades behind competition.

LLoyds isn't Polaris - so, Polaris has no liability whatsoever. I'm going to guess dealers are independently owned (like Harley) so whatever goes on there.....Polaris is also insulated.

In my opinion - Polaris NEEDS this to compete with Harley over the long haul. After all, there are two parts to this hobby/pastime: 1) Riding and 2) Tinkering.

For those above the Mason/Dixon, #2 becomes really important given the 4-6 months of harsh winter.

I've been test riding and shopping for a bagger (and, just decided on Challenger after finally riding everything) and can tell you that aftermarket options were definitely something that entered the equation.

Just my 2p. I could be completely off base.
Actually Harley was sued by the EPA in 2016 for $12M

Violations
EPA alleges that Harley-Davidson violated the Clean Air Act by manufacturing and selling about 340,000 devices, known as tuners, that allow users to change how a motorcycle’s engine functions. These changes can cause the motorcycles to emit higher amounts of certain air pollutants than they would in the original configuration that Harley-Davidson certified with EPA.

Harley-Davidson also manufactured and sold more than 12,000 motorcycles that EPA alleges did not undergo proper EPA certification to ensure they meet federal clean air standards.

Injunctive Relief
Under the settlement, Harley-Davidson:
  • will immediately stop selling the tuners, buy back all of the tuners in stock at their dealerships and destroy the tuners.
  • obtain certification from the California Air Resources Board for any tuners it sells in the future. These certifications will demonstrate that new tuners do not cause their motorcycles to exceed their certified emissions limits.
  • will conduct tests on tuner-equipped motorcycles and provide the results to EPA to guarantee that their motorcycles remain in compliance with EPA certification requirements for emissions.
  • will also ensure that all of its future motorcycle models intended for sale in the United States are fully certified by EPA.
Civil Penalty
Harley-Davidson will pay a $12 million civil penalty.

They also were to pay $3M " to retrofit or replace wood-burning appliances with cleaner stoves to offset excess emissions." However, that was recently overturned.

Also according to the article:
Harley-Davidson did not admit liability and has said it disagreed with the government, arguing that the tuners were designed and sold to be used in “competition only.”

Even though the settlement had not yet taken effect, Harley-Davidson has said that since August 2016, it sold only tuners certified by the California Air Resources Board and halted sale of the tuners in question and destroyed tuners returned by dealers.


So it is very possible that Polaris could be sued by the EPA as well if they are seen as compliant in installing illegal modifications for street use.


Notice I did not say that I agree or disagree, just pointing out some facts :)
 
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Oh, and even Indian parts aren't necessarily a sure thing either. For example, the Stage 1 Oval Slip-On Muffler Kit as a triangle with a number 1 in it. If you click on the Important Regulatory Information link it opens a pdf file that explains what each of the numbered triangles means.
  1. This kit meets EPA and CARB emission limits. Non-competition street use may violate federal noise limits.
  2. This kit meets EPA emission limits. Not legal for sale or use on non-competition pollution controlled vehicles in California. Tampering with emission-related parts can lead to substantial regulatory penalties. Non-competition street use may violate federal noise limits.
  3. Not legal for sale or use on non-competition pollution controlled vehicles in the U.S. and California. Tampering with emission-related parts can lead to substantial regulatory penalties. Non-competition street use may violate federal noise limits
  4. Individual components are recommended for use with corresponding Indian Motorcycle performance kit components. Not legal for sale or use on noncompetition pollution controlled vehicles in the U.S. and California. Tampering with emission-related parts can lead to substantial regulatory penalties. Noncompetition street use may violate federal noise limits.
  5. Not legal for sale or use in the state of California
 

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Oh, and even Indian parts aren't necessarily a sure thing either. For example, the Stage 1 Oval Slip-On Muffler Kit as a triangle with a number 1 in it. If you click on the Important Regulatory Information link it opens a pdf file that explains what each of the numbered triangles means.
  1. This kit meets EPA and CARB emission limits. Non-competition street use may violate federal noise limits.
  2. This kit meets EPA emission limits. Not legal for sale or use on non-competition pollution controlled vehicles in California. Tampering with emission-related parts can lead to substantial regulatory penalties. Non-competition street use may violate federal noise limits.
  3. Not legal for sale or use on non-competition pollution controlled vehicles in the U.S. and California. Tampering with emission-related parts can lead to substantial regulatory penalties. Non-competition street use may violate federal noise limits
  4. Individual components are recommended for use with corresponding Indian Motorcycle performance kit components. Not legal for sale or use on noncompetition pollution controlled vehicles in the U.S. and California. Tampering with emission-related parts can lead to substantial regulatory penalties. Noncompetition street use may violate federal noise limits.
  5. Not legal for sale or use in the state of California
After-cat exhaust only currently falls under local jurisdictions. Absolutely anything pre-cat "could" be federal.
 

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I assume you were making that comment as an over exaggeration and don't actually believe it's true ;)

If your aftermarket mirrors broke off and damaged something then no, that damage wouldn't be covered. But if you put after market mirrors on your bike and your starter failed, the starter would still be replaced under warranty :rolleyes:



Actually Harley was sued by the EPA in 2016 for $12M

Violations
EPA alleges that Harley-Davidson violated the Clean Air Act by manufacturing and selling about 340,000 devices, known as tuners, that allow users to change how a motorcycle’s engine functions. These changes can cause the motorcycles to emit higher amounts of certain air pollutants than they would in the original configuration that Harley-Davidson certified with EPA.

Harley-Davidson also manufactured and sold more than 12,000 motorcycles that EPA alleges did not undergo proper EPA certification to ensure they meet federal clean air standards.

Injunctive Relief
Under the settlement, Harley-Davidson:
  • will immediately stop selling the tuners, buy back all of the tuners in stock at their dealerships and destroy the tuners.
  • obtain certification from the California Air Resources Board for any tuners it sells in the future. These certifications will demonstrate that new tuners do not cause their motorcycles to exceed their certified emissions limits.
  • will conduct tests on tuner-equipped motorcycles and provide the results to EPA to guarantee that their motorcycles remain in compliance with EPA certification requirements for emissions.
  • will also ensure that all of its future motorcycle models intended for sale in the United States are fully certified by EPA.
Civil Penalty
Harley-Davidson will pay a $12 million civil penalty.

They also were to pay $3M " to retrofit or replace wood-burning appliances with cleaner stoves to offset excess emissions." However, that was recently overturned.

Also according to the article:
Harley-Davidson did not admit liability and has said it disagreed with the government, arguing that the tuners were designed and sold to be used in “competition only.”

Even though the settlement had not yet taken effect, Harley-Davidson has said that since August 2016, it sold only tuners certified by the California Air Resources Board and halted sale of the tuners in question and destroyed tuners returned by dealers.


So it is very possible that Polaris could be sued by the EPA as well if they are seen as compliant in installing illegal modifications for street use.


Notice I did not say that I agree or disagree, just pointing out some facts :)

Yep, and the reason Harley settled is because their lawyers told them too. Their "competition of road" argument was bad because they were modifying bikes at the dealership and selling bikes with the mods done. Now if they took every bike they modded on a trailer to the customers house, they might have had an argument. But since customers were riding their bikes home on the streets, that blew that argument out of the water. Also Harley was having tuners with their name on them made.

The reason Dynojet and others can still get away with it, is because they are selling you tuners for (off-road and racing only).

That doesn't violate the law (yes its a thin line), but installing them and using them on a street bike is illegal, but Dynojets not the one doing it. Dynojet can't control what a customer does.

That's why you see plastered all over aftermarket products "for racing only" "not for street use". This is the legal CYA to help keep the EPA off their back.
 

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What got HD in hot water was 1) being a maker of motorcycles that’s required to manufacture them to comply with govt emission requirements, and 2) manufacturing & selling devices that allowed their bikes to violate emission standards. Would the govt go after Lloydz or DynoJet? Who knows, but they’re relatively little fish in the view of Uncle Sugar.

BTW, HD’s 12 million dollar fine is chump change compared to the money that was generated (for HD & their dealers) over the years by selling tuners and the accessories that complement them, like air intakes, exhausts, dealer dyno tuning, etc.
 
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