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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here is my long promised thread for discussions and resources on how to tune your Indian motorcycles...TS111, TS116, Scouts 60 & 69, & FTR-1200. The main information I will be providing is through my Indian Roadmaster Blog, which I have turned into an Indian tuning related site only. Please read and reference that blog. If you have questions or comments please do it here so others will have the benefit of the Q&A. There are no dumb questions, so do not hesitate to post. Feel free to copy and paste from that blog here to clarify any questions you may have. I hope the blog will serve as a good reference for your tuning efforts, print it out and use it as a resourse.

The reference blog is here: My Indian Roadmaster Blog

This is a big effort and I am slowly rolling out the information. I will not be going over all the tables in a tune, but will hit on the most important. Please feel free to ask questions on the other tables and we will discuss in this thread. My goal is for you to be able to safely manipulate your tune and through logging of data, make your own corrections. I will be supplying the equations I have written in conjunction with our friend @cmoalem. I have modified these equations to take out the Wideband portion of the equations since this is to support non-commercial tuning. If there are any Python wizards here, please feel free to modify and better these equations and share with me and others.

Finally, I do not claim to be an expert. If I provide any information that is not correct, please post the correction or DM me. We are all here to learn as much as possible in the very short time we are given on the Earth....let's be kind to each other in this thread and perhaps we can demystify this thing called engine tuning.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I have added video content over the last two days. Today I will be preparing a video that starts diving into setting up certain tables for better user experience.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Hey Craig - what a tremendous resource! I've looked through your blog and it seems to answer many of the questions that pop up on the forum routinely.
After installing my initial tune from FM, I found my knocking issue improved (but not gone). I'm assuming (hate to do that) that the data logging is the next step.
What I'm looking for may be shared by some: there was a recent post about logging data files... how to get into that w/PV3, and many thinking they had saved numerous files only to find nothing recorded. Is there a simple way to de-mystify this process?

I'll remind you that you wrote "there are no dumb questions"... some of us Luddites struggle.

Once again - Bravo on this initiative!
I plan to put the detailed instructions on how to log files up either this evening or tomorrow. I am making a video today on Drive By Wire and Idle tables. Then we are diving into logging.

I will go over the PV3 and how it automatically will save logs as well as how you can easily lose the file if you do not do something first. This all will be in the writeup I post today.

Viewing Knock and then correcting timing is a little more advanced. I plan to go over that and supply an equation to deal with it. However, the first step is to correct the fuel table before you deal with any ignition issues.

It is certainly okay to ask any question, but I need to cover the basics and be methodical on tuning. That is my goal so you will have a firm grasp and good procedure to tune your engine. There is nothing worse then chasing a problem that might be corrected by fixing another table
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Awesome resource. I'm going to enjoy going over all the content. Thanks!
I just uploaded a bunch more.

At this stage, we are ready to create our first tune (DJT) from our current factory stock file (STK) and begin to record log data. The next series of uploads will be showing how to do your first fuel corrections!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Is there an order that would be better to go through the pages on the site? It seems like we would need to learn some of these things in a particular order, but i dont see an obvious flow or progression in the site. But i certainly could just be missing something.

View attachment 692214
I am revising this post. I did some work with the Archive listing on the side of the blog. It now has the oldest post on the top, so read from the top down. I am posting in a chronological order with the steps it takes to understand how and why on tuning fundamentals. Of course with the videos you can skip over to the actual tutorial for tuning, but you might miss why I do the things I do. I also wanted to create an overly in-depth blog for Indian tuning. I would have killed for a blog with this much info when I started learning in 2005.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Added another video and post today. This one goes through the first 5 tuning cycles with an interesting first log that we discuss. This is part 1. Part 2 video shows how to recognized you are done with the fuel corrections and finalize the tune from the fueling point of view. That video will be uploaded over the weekend. Lot's to keep you busy in the mean time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 · (Edited)
I have been tuning using the script file from Dyno Jet, should I continue tuning the with the script file from you blog or should I start over when I use your script file?
Mine is a lot better, tunes all three tables in one pass. There is no reason to start over, just start using mine.

Your tune will zero in quickly with my equation, your effort to date has not been a waste.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
I added more content this evening. I will be providing a second equation this weekend to correct for VE Table & Injector Compensation Factor - Front & Rear tables. The use of this equation is the same as the VE & IPW Comp Table equation. I rarely correct the ICF Tables anymore, usually leave them all 1.00's. However if you want to fine tune you engine, these tables are the ones to correct.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Added more content today, which wraps up tuning the fuel tables. Next post and video will deal with one of the most confusing tables, the Mass Flow Through the Throttle Body. I will discuss what it is and how to tune it using an equation I provide.

If you like these series, be sure to hit the like button on the video and subscribe. It will help drive other users to it that might want information on motorcycle tuning (or ATV as well).
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Well @CraigB1960 I finally got the courage up to try my hand at making a tune from my stock file last night after reading through your blog and watching some videos. I was really surprised this morning that the tune I modified, using your tutorial examples of course, runs so much smoother and no decel pop like the FM tune I had on it (which by the way was acquired after you left them).

I tried some datalogging this morning on the ride to work but when I got here the PV3 said it had disconnected from the bike. Not sure what that is about but I'll try to mount it on my handlebars on the way home and hopefully get some valuable log files.

I have a couple questions for you if you have the time:
  • I have a completely stock MY '16 TS111 engine, with my own diy intake, no cat, and Indian stage 1 pipes that I acquired used. So I don't have any Indian stage 1 card download or anything. Is this ok to start with or should I look at getting a stage 1 card then start over?
  • I thought I read or heard you say somewhere that there was something you did to a tune when the bike no longer had the catalytic converter in it. But I can't find that now, can you expound on this please?
Thanks in advance!
Should not have any issues with a 2016 disconnecting. Be sure that when you start your bike with the PV3 connected that once you power on the bike, do not start it until you see that the PV3 is displaying data on its display.

You do not need the stage 1 factory flash, it is a waste of money. However it is good to start off with the settings that it has. If you send me your STK file, I will send you the recommended starting DJT. Send it to me at indiantuning at gmail.

There are no special settings for CAT versus non-CAT.

BTW, congratulations! Tuning your bike is very easy and once you do it a couple of times it becomes addictive. You will find it to be a source of satisfaction when you start to notice the improvements you make.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
I loaded your tune this morning and it's running great so far. I tried taking some log files but I keep getting an 'error 201' code on the PV3. I think I may have an issue with a loose connection in my bike somewhere. Anyway it will let me log for 10-15 min then it cuts out. I hit the return key to get off of the error screen, then the circle again, and it says log stored. So at least I have something to work with anyway.

Is there a way to combine log files if I can only gather 10 min periods at a time?
You do not need to combine them, just load the logs files in Data Center. My videos show this. You can load in as many logs as you like, though the default is 16 IIRC.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
Finally got to watch the "First log and tune for TS111 TS116" video while at work. I think I did everything per your instruction except I think the equation I used was the VE/ICF instead of the VE/IPW. As I was reading through the other night I downloaded and saved both, guess I lost track of which to use first.
Just take the time that recorded the logs and run the VE and IPW on it to produce a new tune. Or take logs with your current corrected tune and run the VE/IPW equation on that tune and logs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 · (Edited)
Shout out to Craig B, the amount of info on your blog is amazing and my deepest thanks for the effort you have put into these bikes over the years, and your generosity to share your knowledge!
My scout rogue is on the way , and I’ll be putting in the zipper maxflow with RPW Accelerant pipes
Going to go with PV3 and tune with narrow bands first, then add the wide bands for WOT tuning, my question is,
Once the narrow band tuning is done can I remove the narrow bands, and use a plug/ simulator on the factory NB input connectors, slap the wide bands in with the wbcx, ( Rpw has 18mm bungs with reducer for the factory sensors) or should I add another bung and run both together ? And once done with WOT runs n tuning slap the narrow bands back in
It would be best to run them both together, however you can set your Target AFR out of closed-loop for tuning with the WB's and use 02 bypass plugs on the harness to keep from throwing codes. I do not know how good the adapters are for the 18 to 12mm bungs though (I have my doubts). The sensor needs to be in the exhaust flow. Good Dyno operators will use a o2 block that taps into the header with a small hole, but the difference with them is they have a vacuum pump that pulls the exhaust to the wideband sensors for an accurate reading.

You can certainly tune WOT with NB's, you just have to slowly roll the throttle open over a course of 1 or 2 seconds instead of slamming it wide open all at once. This give the ECU time to correct the fuel. Once you are done, just add 3 to 5% to the higher RPM/Load areas and call it a day. You will be pretty darn accurate when all is said and done.

Here is what the Herko Block looks like. Notice the vacuum port for the pump and the 18mm port for the WB. It is a temporary setup for Dyno tuning, however it provides accurate results over a sniffer. The best method is to insert the wideband into the exhaust stream, but unless you have 18mm bungs welded in, this is the next best method.

Nickel Cable Auto part Fashion accessory Metal
 

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Discussion Starter · #61 ·
Last night, I downloaded an 'unlocked' tune from Dynojet, that "about" matched my stock configuration, strictly for the purpose of logging rides and modifying it. However - major shoutout to Dynojet~! With this tune the dreaded knocking that I've been desperate to avoid for the last 45K miles is finally gone! I never dreamed that a canned tune would be better than the custom one I received from FuelMoto (and the stock tune was dreadful BTW). I guess my fiancé is right about my needing to be more willing to try new things. :rolleyes:
I logged the ride to work, and I'll have couple more after the trip home. I'm actually somewhat looking forward to working in PowerCore... as confounding as I do find this program... it will get better once I have real files to work with, right? I have to remind myself what I tell others at work: all the preparation and research you can do is great, but things won't really make sense until you start doing it.
The tune has everything to do with noise on our bikes. Slight timing changes really impact the noise in the pre-2019 bikes. I have a course coming up that will address this with equations that will help.

I have put a lot of work into this blog and especially the videos to take the fear out of tuning your bike! Take your time, do watch & listen to the videos and read the blog, practice and you will be fine. There is no other resource on or off the net that goes through tuning like my resources.....I should charge! However there is a donation button....hint...hint.

I am getting ready to put up example/practice files so you can run the tunelab equations and compare what I did and what you come up with. It all takes a lot of time for me to assemble, so look for this sometime over this weekend.

Unless you really change some values you should not, you will be fine. Remember, everything is reversible. Always keep a known good tune on your PV3 in case you get out and have issues, pull off and flash the known good tune, you will be fine then.

And a final note, I have been unlocking my tunes upon request. I was thinking about putting them out in a large sharepoint, but really do not want to enable "professional" tuners from taking them, using and charging folks for them. And yes, that has happened in the past.
 

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Discussion Starter · #64 ·
It seems as though some tunes from DJ are locked as well. I'm getting a password request to "decrypt this tune" for the one I downloaded from their website (which I used to log my rides today) ...and the custom one I was sent as well. I can open the .stk file (the 1,025K one) and made the initial changes for max speed, torque limits, etc. I guess I need to contact FuelMoto... Craig?

The "Tunelab" tab showed up (finally) and I got the equation in there. Got the logs into the data center, set up the fields and have some fairly cool-looking graphs to look at - so - progress. (?) Some of my LTFT's look a bit wild... but mostly just when it was in 8th gear. :LOL: Engine speed at these times was idle, so I guess 8 is neutral?

Since I'm stuck - so it's cocktail hour.


Edit: I now see one can save the modified .stk file as a .djt. Am I catching on??
Just ran the formula... looking at the VE changes... never thought I'd get this far.
Can't wait to flash the bike and do it all over again!
I sent you a DM with info on how to open the DJT file.

Note on Tunelab tab, it will only show up when you have a tune loaded, either an STK or DJT file. Yes on 8 as being neutral.

I have a video that explains how to save the STK to a DJT to build your first tune, though it is buried in this video at time mark 6:20. There is a lot of info on these videos that is easy to miss.

Blog Link

Video Link
 

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Discussion Starter · #65 ·
You got it. Modify the .stk file and start tuning with data logs and Craig’s equations.

i could be wrong, but I think when you buy the license from Dynojet they create the editable .stk file and the .djt files are saving only the changes made. At least that’s how I see it since the .djt files are so much smaller and always have to have an .stk file to reference.

So as long as you always keep a copy of the .stk file and the last .djt file that ran well, you can always go back to what you knew was working. I’m really enjoying how much smoother my bike is.
You are correct to some extent. There is never a user editable STK file. Dynojet inserts hooks into the STK file, such as data channels, that did not exists before, when you flash the DJT file. This is all user transparent and a very secretive process.

The PV3 takes the STK file, which is the factory calibration file and plugs in the changes made and saved in the DJT file as well as creates the data channels used by the PV3 and recorded in the logs. This makes flashing the tune faster instead of having to flash the entire STK file each time you make a change. Back in the old days of the PVCX, it took about 12 minutes to flash the STK file versus about 4 minutes for the DJT. Even then, the 4 minutes was forever if you were a dyno tuner.

I like to think of the STK file like an Excel template with the DJT file having the actual data inserted into the spreadsheet.

However it does lead to issues if you flash your ECU with a lot of DJT file changes. I find that after awhile you should flash the STK file, let the bike sit for a couple of minutes and then flash the newest DJT file back. There seems to have creeping leprosy overtime by flashing DJT files and this procedure resets the ECU to a known good state. How many times? I do not have an accurate number, but I would do it every 6 cycles just to make sure.

The STK file must always be on the PV3 for it to be able to flash the DJT file. If you should misplace or erase the STK file, no worries, just send me, or Dynojet, or if purchased from FM the PV_Info.txt file and we can send you a new STK file that is an exact copy of the one you read out of the ECU. Or ask here, just identify the Tune CMP and Checksum. This goes back to the STK file being non-user editable. There is nothing unique about the STK file, except for the Tune CMP and its Checksum. That is how the ECU (and we) identify the Factory Calibration (STK).

You can open the PV_Info.txt file to see how this is identified. Same type of info in the Tune Info dialog box.
 

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Discussion Starter · #66 ·
Just a general note. I have put out a lot of information and hours of video up at this point. I do not expect anyone to fully grasp yet master any of this stuff. It will come with time and practice. It took me 7 years and tuning a thousand and more of Indians to get to the point I am now. Also, I have not polished any of the videos, I tend to just start and um my way through it....sorry about that.

So when I reference a video or blog page, it is to help steer you and others toward the info. Certainly not to discourage. It is a lot to take in for sure. I am hoping this will become a good reference thread for future tuners as well, so please keep posting your progress and ask your questions. We will be covering a lot of material, some of which I am not 100% certain of. There are thousands of tables in the factory calibration that we do not have access to. These tables can and do affect the behavior of the fuel system in ways that we cannot explain. It is what it is, we just have to make the best of what we have.

If there are certain topics or questions you have post them and I will try to provide an answer. If you are hesitant to ask here, send me an email through the blog and I will try to answer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #67 ·
I posted the a new video that covers an example that you can do yourself to see if you come up with the same result I do. This is a good tutorial on fuel corrections (without making any manual changes to the VE table).

Example Tutorial Blog post

I upload all the videos at 4k resolution. You might want to hit the gear in Youtube and select a lower resolution if you are getting jumpy video streaming.
 
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