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I read elsewhere HD sales are down 5%, and Indian up 37%. Based on the large margin between the two I would say those are mostly HD riders switching to Indian.
I would agree with that just based on all the traded in HD's at Indian dealers. You want a used HD, go to one.
 

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As a side note, confirming what BaggerJay said, every person I have met in person on the road with an Indian cruiser or bagger came from a HD or a Victory. No one came from BMW or Honda. Zero!
Hopefully I'll be on one in a couple months coming from Honda! :)
 

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While they different in styles, they are closely priced, and designed with similar intentions of use. So regardless of "style" they are comparable even if different in execution.
Save for the fact that his comparison was based n engine style being overhead cam, yet he compared a v-twin to an in-line six and a flat 6,


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Save for the fact that his comparison was based n engine style being overhead cam, yet he compared a v-twin to an in-line six and a flat 6,


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Ya, not very consistent, but I've never been a fan of micro splitting categories as they seem To want to do these days.
There used to be "metal" music. now, there is 27 subsets of metal and I can only tell 4 of them apart....lol
Anyways..
If the prices are similar, and the design intention is the same, they are are apples to apples and should be compared.
No body is gonna tell me a sportster is not comparable to a Scout.. just because one blows the other away because of its engineering difference is not a disqualifier to comparison..
Similar prices, similar size, similar purpose, Similar intentions=similar buyers cross shopping.
 

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Harleys major screw up is they never reframed the V-Rod. If they had pulled their head out and put the V-Rod mill in a simple pig iron monoshock frame like the current softail they would have had a new class leader. The Stunters and Club Bikes would not Be Dynas. And the outside folks would have broken down dealer doors to get to it. The clam shell muscle bike semi drag frame only appealed to a niche here today gone tomorrow market. The bike did not sell because of the frame. This would have also let them break cleanly from the failed Buell mess with a cool, fast naked bike to go up against the rest. That would have earned a lot of respect from consumers and the industry.

Honestly,,, there is no comparing Road Glide to Challenger,,, None! The HD fan boys don't like it. But Indian in one swift kick took out HD's teeth, broke the jaw and bruised there brain stem. Indian has also hurt themselves. The Challenger engine just made all there air cooled V-twins obsolete. The 131 is a dying gasp. HD is in big trouble. They have not made any money in 10 years as of this last 4th quarter report. They have been bleeding cash for 10 years. When they get the new motor out for the street fighter and that class of bike if it's all or mostly inhouse engineered it will take them 5 years to get the motor right. It's taken the idiots at HD four years to admit defeat with the M8 oil pump. And they had the same issue with the early twinkys. But they brought a outsider in to fix the issue. HD has had oil pump issues since the knuckle. They never seem to learn anything other than marketing and fit/finish. I don't think HD as we know it will be here in 10 years. The two new engines on the way are not going to roll out smooth like the V-Rod mill. If HD had any brains left in there ass they would be throwing what cash they have left at General Motors for there help to do a water cooled LS motorcycle engine. But they won't,, because GM will own them in 10 years.
The only thing I'd like to point out is that Buell and the V-rod to lesser extent, didn't fail.. they were purposely failed by HD and HD staff.
They did more to make sure they would fail than succeed..
The dealers around me if they had a buell sign, didn't turn it on, some didnt put up any window/wall signage up.. what they all had in common was ordering one or 2 buells and only the one with heritage Harley engines not the rotax based. Then they put them in the back corner where no one would see them. if you asked for them, they would scoff and reluctantly point towards them.. there you sat until a salesmen came and tried to sell you a Harley..
Kind of the same for the V-rod.. but corporate added the fact that they never offered different iterations of it.
It's of my opinion if they took the buells and V-rods seriously, they would be a completely different company today, that wouldn't have left the gap open for there to be a lucrative competitor called Indian...
That's how bad they F-ed up..
So bad, there's Indian.
 

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Ya, not very consistent, but I've never been a fan of micro splitting categories as they seem To want to do these days.
There used to be "metal" music. now, there is 27 subsets of metal and I can only tell 4 of them apart....lol
Anyways..
If the prices are similar, and the design intention is the same, they are are apples to apples and should be compared.
No body is gonna tell me a sportster is not comparable to a Scout.. just because one blows the other away because of its engineering difference is not a disqualifier to comparison..
Similar prices, similar size, similar purpose, Similar intentions=similar buyers cross shopping.
used to be just two genders also, now +,- 27 of them too :eek: :LOL::ROFLMAO:
 

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Ya, not very consistent, but I've never been a fan of micro splitting categories as they seem To want to do these days.
There used to be "metal" music. now, there is 27 subsets of metal and I can only tell 4 of them apart....lol
Anyways..
If the prices are similar, and the design intention is the same, they are are apples to apples and should be compared.
No body is gonna tell me a sportster is not comparable to a Scout.. just because one blows the other away because of its engineering difference is not a disqualifier to comparison..
Similar prices, similar size, similar purpose, Similar intentions=similar buyers cross shopping.
That’s fine, and I don’t disagree. The problem with his argument is that he’s a disgruntled HD lover that tried to group the Challenger with two other bikes based of water cooling and cam placement in an attempt to give it a “loss”, yet completely disregarded 2 cylinder vs 6 cylinder. It’s the old adage that statistics can be made to say whatever you want. He placed the challenger in that group knowing it’s down on power and will lose a drag race, yet conveniently left the HD in a group where he knows it will win in other areas. Like you said, same price, same usage purpose. They all should be compared together. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of his post. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that the Challenger beats the Honda or BMW in areas that don’t relate to acceleration however, and I doubt the HD will top either of those bikes in any measurable metric. The completely subjective category of looks, maybe.


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What about Victory? Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Honda, BMW, Triumph, Guzzi? All trying for Harley’s Cruiser market...
What did Harley do wrong?
View attachment 575906
Said as a joke or tongue and cheek but is a legitimate question with a very simple answer.

1. They didn't create the American cruiser, they were just the last ones standing using designs invented by the failed companies that happened to spend money on R&D. Pretty easy to have more capitol on hand and have lower pricing higher volume sales when you copy others investments..
cough like China cough

2. Berated, any other rider and make who didn't ride a or wasn't an HD.

calling them posers or too poor to afford the real thing, salesmen calling everything else junk, being condescending, arrogant calling anything with a fairing imitators, using racist intent in some older sales adds let people die from failed design, blaming customers on every recalls. Being assholes with warranty repairs and cancelling it due to minor some times needed modification..

And all those makes you listed LOVED when they did this, since many won't do business with a company like that..
 

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Said as a joke or tongue and cheek but is a legitimate question with a very simple answer.

1. They didn't create the American cruiser, they were just the last ones standing using designs invented by the failed companies that happened to spend money on R&D. Pretty easy to have more capitol on hand and have lower pricing higher volume sales when you copy others investments..
cough like China cough

2. Berated, any other rider and make who didn't ride a or wasn't an HD.

calling them posers or too poor to afford the real thing, salesmen calling everything else junk, being condescending, arrogant calling anything with a fairing imitators, using racist intent in some older sales adds let people die from failed design, blaming customers on every recalls. Being assholes with warranty repairs and cancelling it due to minor some times needed modification..

And all those makes you listed LOVED when they did this, since many won't do business with a company like that..
Some people don’t know how to act when the know they are “High Status” ....they are supposed to be empathetic to the underprivileged and unenlightened...🧐
575910

🤣
 

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They can sell all they want and that metric is dropping like a rock. But if your not making any money on said sale and bleeding cash the sale itself only means something to the aftermarket. HD financial services is going down with it's margins dropping as well as soft goods/motor cloths.
 

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For accuracy sake at last count, it was 72.. 🤡
Well I know I may be considered old fashion,
Maybe even a guy that values Heritage 🙄 or tradition.🤨
But there is only two genders.
Harley and everything else.
Then you have the gender identity Challenger... oops I mean Challenged.
They are all over the board.. Maybe looking for a trophy.:unsure:
 

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Well I know I may be considered old fashion,
Maybe even a guy that values Heritage 🙄 or tradition.🤨
But there is only two genders.
Harley and everything else.
Then you have the gender identity Challenger... oops I mean Challenged.
They are all over the board.. Maybe looking for a trophy.:unsure:
😂😂😂
That was good.. outrageous, but good..
 

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They can sell all they want and that metric is dropping like a rock. But if your not making any money on said sale and bleeding cash the sale itself only means something to the aftermarket. HD financial services is going down with it's margins dropping as well as soft goods/motor cloths.
Well we all know HD is deep in debt.. I guess they are trying to dig out of it in a head wind...I guess it’s that or lay down and die.
 
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