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The 131 reeks of desperation. I have nothing against HD. In fact I will have one in my garage at some point, but it’s something that appeals to the Harley faithful only. I would almost guarantee that someone who is up in the air between the Challenger and RG isn’t thinking “oh, I will get the RG and then dump an additional 7k so it will be as fast as the Challenger.” I mean, HD would have served themselves well by putting the 131 in the mid-year CVO that was just announced. At least then you could justify the bend-over that HD is giving you at 40k.
It's interesting you say that. I talked to a guy that works at a HD dealership and we talked about the 131. He said flat out it wasn't for your every day rider.
 

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Like I had said previously on this thread, I give credit to the Challenger as being a first.. It’s The first really big 60 degree twin as is like the V-Rod..
That is original for a fixed fairing bagger.
But if the intent is to unseat the Roadglide. I doubt it..
Many other imports have built better performing bikes before, but none has recreated or bested the feel or attraction for the 45 degree motor.
 

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It's all good until some kid on a more comparable to the Challenger, apples to apples v-twin, water cooled, OHC, puney little 74 inch HD V-Rod that he picked up cheap cause they didnt sell well to the push rod - air cooled HD gangsters shows up and mops the road with the Indian Challenger 108 inch.. It will also be interesting to see what happens when the scheduled bagger "track day" happens this spring and the other OHC, water cooled baggers show up (Beemer 1600cc @ 160 horse, new Wing 1800cc @ 110 horse) that are actually comparing apples to apples with the Challenger.. My guess, when that happens,, the bagger motorcycling community will see:
1st place: Beemer
2nd place: Wing
3rd place: Indian
and then in the apples for apples air cooled/push rod engines:
1st place: HD 114
2nd place: Indian 111
3rd place: Yamaha Eluder 113
I also highly suspect that HD is sitting - waiting to see if the HD bagger world really is ready accept, and purchase watercooled OHC engines as the "new" seller.. I think HD got hammered enough with the V-Rod's loss of profit that they are not going to redo that amazing design until they know its sellable this time.
 

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Back in 2001, I built a custom bike with a TP engineering 107" motor on an evo style bottom end. It blew up within the first 3 months. They replaced the cylinders, rods, and pistons under warranty. It blew the head and base gaskets after that time. I eventually replaced the entire motor with an S&S version of the same engine and the bottom end blew up. I sold the bike and bought a 2003 CVO Road King and put 50,000 miles of trouble free miles on it. The twin cam had the capacity to hold together with a larger displacement engine at 103". Harley cam out with a 110" and had reliability issues for years before perfecting it. In between, I had a Chopper built with a 100" S&S 4x4 crate motor. It was very reliable, but it was a bar hopper. So bottom line is, you can't just put giant cylinders and pistons on an engine and expect the cases to handle the additional stress load, the oiling system to handle the extra heat, compression, and friction without increasing cooling and oil capacity. Harley has had big crate motors available for years. Why did they never really catch on? Because of drivability and questionable reliability.
 

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[QUOTE="Gearset807, post: 3355993,

The V-Rod water cooled engine was a great engine and they released that in the early 2000s. It didn’t sell mainly because it was too modern for most Harley owners at the time.

The Harley V-Rod engine was only 69 cubic inches and it was rated at 115 HP.
————

Before this Challenger I owned 2 HD’s, both VRods... (2007) 1130cc & (2014) 1250cc. Both upgraded w/Air and 2-1 pipes. Tuned.
They were FAST. They weighed under 680, and the 1250 VRod would smoke my Challenger. I really miss the VRod’s hydraulic clutch! ...don’t miss the suckass suspension! ...but that HD/Porsche liquid-V was smooth & strong.
Lovin the Challenger, it’s a winner & my long-term ride.
 

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I always thought the VRod engine would eventually find it's way into the touring frame, but no, never happened. When I test rode the VRod every year back in the days when HD rented out the civic center in Rapid City at Sturgis week, liked the power and feel of the engine, better trans and clutch, but they messed it up with the weird seating position. Never could get comfortable with the pegs far forward and the handlebars way forward and low. And the aftermarket never attempted to have a mod/fix for that to attract the traditionalists.
 

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I wonder if Harley felt like they had to make the V-Rod a lot different than their “conventional” bikes to keep from offending the traditionalists? The bike was so different that it allowed them to put in a completely different type of engine. If they could make the V-Rod engine the same size as what’s in a Challenger it would be a monster.


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Harleys major screw up is they never reframed the V-Rod. If they had pulled their head out and put the V-Rod mill in a simple pig iron monoshock frame like the current softail they would have had a new class leader. The Stunters and Club Bikes would not Be Dynas. And the outside folks would have broken down dealer doors to get to it. The clam shell muscle bike semi drag frame only appealed to a niche here today gone tomorrow market. The bike did not sell because of the frame. This would have also let them break cleanly from the failed Buell mess with a cool, fast naked bike to go up against the rest. That would have earned a lot of respect from consumers and the industry.

Honestly,,, there is no comparing Road Glide to Challenger,,, None! The HD fan boys don't like it. But Indian in one swift kick took out HD's teeth, broke the jaw and bruised there brain stem. Indian has also hurt themselves. The Challenger engine just made all there air cooled V-twins obsolete. The 131 is a dying gasp. HD is in big trouble. They have not made any money in 10 years as of this last 4th quarter report. They have been bleeding cash for 10 years. When they get the new motor out for the street fighter and that class of bike if it's all or mostly inhouse engineered it will take them 5 years to get the motor right. It's taken the idiots at HD four years to admit defeat with the M8 oil pump. And they had the same issue with the early twinkys. But they brought a outsider in to fix the issue. HD has had oil pump issues since the knuckle. They never seem to learn anything other than marketing and fit/finish. I don't think HD as we know it will be here in 10 years. The two new engines on the way are not going to roll out smooth like the V-Rod mill. If HD had any brains left in there ass they would be throwing what cash they have left at General Motors for there help to do a water cooled LS motorcycle engine. But they won't,, because GM will own them in 10 years.
 

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It's all good until some kid on a more comparable to the Challenger, apples to apples v-twin, water cooled, OHC, puney little 74 inch HD V-Rod that he picked up cheap cause they didnt sell well to the push rod - air cooled HD gangsters shows up and mops the road with the Indian Challenger 108 inch.. It will also be interesting to see what happens when the scheduled bagger "track day" happens this spring and the other OHC, water cooled baggers show up (Beemer 1600cc @ 160 horse, new Wing 1800cc @ 110 horse) that are actually comparing apples to apples with the Challenger.. My guess, when that happens,, the bagger motorcycling community will see:
1st place: Beemer
2nd place: Wing
3rd place: Indian
and then in the apples for apples air cooled/push rod engines:
1st place: HD 114
2nd place: Indian 111
3rd place: Yamaha Eluder 113
I also highly suspect that HD is sitting - waiting to see if the HD bagger world really is ready accept, and purchase watercooled OHC engines as the "new" seller.. I think HD got hammered enough with the V-Rod's loss of profit that they are not going to redo that amazing design until they know its sellable this time.
Who is your dealer? That guy sold you some strong shit, and you smoked the whole bag, before you made this ridiculous post.


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Harleys major screw up is they never reframed the V-Rod. If they had pulled their head out and put the V-Rod mill in a simple pig iron monoshock frame like the current softail they would have had a new class leader. The Stunters and Club Bikes would not Be Dynas. And the outside folks would have broken down dealer doors to get to it. The clam shell muscle bike semi drag frame only appealed to a niche here today gone tomorrow market. The bike did not sell because of the frame. This would have also let them break cleanly from the failed Buell mess with a cool, fast naked bike to go up against the rest. That would have earned a lot of respect from consumers and the industry.

Honestly,,, there is no comparing Road Glide to Challenger,,, None! The HD fan boys don't like it. But Indian in one swift kick took out HD's teeth, broke the jaw and bruised there brain stem. Indian has also hurt themselves. The Challenger engine just made all there air cooled V-twins obsolete. The 131 is a dying gasp. HD is in big trouble. They have not made any money in 10 years as of this last 4th quarter report. They have been bleeding cash for 10 years. When they get the new motor out for the street fighter and that class of bike if it's all or mostly inhouse engineered it will take them 5 years to get the motor right. It's taken the idiots at HD four years to admit defeat with the M8 oil pump. And they had the same issue with the early twinkys. But they brought a outsider in to fix the issue. HD has had oil pump issues since the knuckle. They never seem to learn anything other than marketing and fit/finish. I don't think HD as we know it will be here in 10 years. The two new engines on the way are not going to roll out smooth like the V-Rod mill. If HD had any brains left in there ass they would be throwing what cash they have left at General Motors for there help to do a water cooled LS motorcycle engine. But they won't,, because GM will own them in 10 years.
It’s kinda early to tell but I think it’s more like a decline of interest in biking overall..
The “Cruiser Bike Fad” has gone on much longer then I ever expected.
I don’t think it’s that Indian is going to take HD’s place.
Harley is a premium product, just because it’s not configured like you would have it, doesn’t necessarily speak for the majority.

From stock market reporting:
To be sure, in the U.S., Harley-Davidson (NYSE: HOG) dominates with a market share of the heavyweight 601+cc motorcycle market of 50.4 percent. Indian trails far behind, even after reporting an increase in North American sales in part because of customer response to the new Challenger. In the fourth quarter, Indian reported overall motorcycle division sales, including parts, garments and accessories, of $119 million. Harley's global sales for motorcycles, general merchandise and parts and accessories totaled $852.7 million in the quarter.
 

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I did the math. 852.7 divided by 119 equals 7.166 so Indian has gone from selling about a tenth of what Harley did a year ago to now selling wee bit over one seventh. I would call that growth and taking more market share.
I’m wondering about that also.. Yet HD still maintains 50+ market share..
Indian sales coming from metric riders?
 

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I did the math. 852.7 divided by 119 equals 7.166 so Indian has gone from selling about a tenth of what Harley did a year ago to now selling wee bit over one seventh. I would call that growth and taking more market share.
I’m wondering about that also.. Yet HD still maintains 50+ market share..
Indian sales coming from metric riders?
I think they pull from everyone.
That disparagement in numbers is with in each companies margin of error..
 

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It's all good until some kid on a more comparable to the Challenger, apples to apples v-twin, water cooled, OHC, puney little 74 inch HD V-Rod that he picked up cheap cause they didnt sell well to the push rod - air cooled HD gangsters shows up and mops the road with the Indian Challenger 108 inch.. It will also be interesting to see what happens when the scheduled bagger "track day" happens this spring and the other OHC, water cooled baggers show up (Beemer 1600cc @ 160 horse, new Wing 1800cc @ 110 horse) that are actually comparing apples to apples with the Challenger.. My guess, when that happens,, the bagger motorcycling community will see:
1st place: Beemer
2nd place: Wing
3rd place: Indian
and then in the apples for apples air cooled/push rod engines:
1st place: HD 114
2nd place: Indian 111
3rd place: Yamaha Eluder 113
I also highly suspect that HD is sitting - waiting to see if the HD bagger world really is ready accept, and purchase watercooled OHC engines as the "new" seller.. I think HD got hammered enough with the V-Rod's loss of profit that they are not going to redo that amazing design until they know its sellable this time.
How do you compare the Wing and the Beemer...... two totally different styles. i wouldn’t put these two bikes in the same class as the HD or Indian cruisers.
 

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How do you compare the Wing and the Beemer...... two totally different styles. i wouldn’t put these two bikes in the same class as the HD or Indian cruisers.
While they different in styles, they are closely priced, and designed with similar intentions of use. So regardless of "style" they are comparable even if different in execution.
 

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I did the math. 852.7 divided by 119 equals 7.166 so Indian has gone from selling about a tenth of what Harley did a year ago to now selling wee bit over one seventh. I would call that growth and taking more market share.
Regarding the 2019 4Q earnings...


A couple of highlights:

"The good news is that despite the industry’s slump in 2019, Indian Motorcycle's sales are up."

"The announcement comes after Indian’s direct competitor Harley-Davidson announced a significant drop in sales 2019, notably due to a difficult U.S. market."
 

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I’m wondering about that also.. Yet HD still maintains 50+ market share..
Indian sales coming from metric riders?
I read elsewhere HD sales are down 5%, and Indian up 37%. Based on the large margin between the two I would say those are mostly HD riders switching to Indian.
 

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Total sales don't equal profitability. Just think of the cost of owning and running a HD dealership. Most are dedicated buildings with a single product offering with a large staff and large inventory of the full line of bikes. Some move and some don't. The Scout has hurt the Sportster series big time. If you really want a Sportster you can buy a used one with a couple thousand miles with some accessories on it for 1/2 price. That doesn't help the dealer. Those bikes have been around so long that you can get them serviced for $50/hr. Less from a local independent mechanic, who will also sell you aftermarket accessories from Parts Unlimited, Tucker Rocky, CCI for half the price of OEM accessories and install them for whatever time it a tuallybtakes to install. They can upgrade you to Redline, Amsoil, Mobil 1, or whatever you feel most comfortable with for oil products. On the flip side, Indian has developed modern technology that requires or at least scares. Buyers into returning to the dealer for service. Synthetic oil 15-60 has replaced the seni-syn for 2020 even on the Thunderstrokes.

As a side note, confirming what BaggerJay said, every person I have met in person on the road with an Indian cruiser or bagger came from a HD or a Victory. No one came from BMW or Honda. Zero!
 
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