Indian Motorcycle Forum banner
  • Hey everyone! Enter your ride HERE to be a part of this month's Ride of the Month Challenge!

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,192 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Indian Husky4

I realize this is the Scout Forum. And it has the most activity on this board. So I present this thought here.
The topic I'm bringing up is not directly related, other then the possibility of another new product from the reastablished Indian Co.

The Indian 4

As we see with the new Scout, the Company has truly brought the spirit and intent of the Scout, to the present level of technology. I believe the Scout is truly a cruiser market game changer.

I'm wondering, what Indians intent was for the "4"? And does it too, have a place in the market and for the enjoyment of enthusiasts.

My screen Name is inspired from the Husqvarna "Nuda" (naked bike) that was built and only sold in Europe. It never made it here because of perceived competitive costs and BMW sold Husky to KTM and the engine was property of BMW. Thus canceled production.

the engine is a parallel twin. It has a 315 degree phased crank. So the cadence of the engine is exactly the same as a Harley.. And I argue the the harley sound is the most entertaining on 2 wheels..

Now If Indian was to build a "4". In this fashion.. What sounds better then a Harley? Answer! 2 Harley's!!
By the way, this Nuda engine is 900 cc. And makes massive horsepower and torque.

Now if we put two of them together in appropriate sizing for the bike, the Indian "4" would not only be fast but sound better then anything on the road.. BTW the Nuda engine red lines at 9000 rpm's. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
468 Posts
Sounds like you're thinking v4 - I and others have tapped on that speculative door, too.

Harley is not the place for Indian to go. And Harley will always be younger than Triumph, eh? It's true.
I don't think anyone wants another Harley-Indian.

Triumph has it's Rocket III It's a pretty chunky bike.
An Inline 4 is going to have to be either a tiny 4 or an even chunkier bike.
Original Indian's "4", formerly Ace, which was founded by Mr. Henderson, shared a similar frame about the same size as the Scout which was smaller and more lightweight than the Chief.

Consider Honda and Yamaha:
Honda and Yamaha have their V4s
background: Honda came out with their v45 Sabre followed by their V65 Magna. Yamaha responds with the V-Max.
Yammy's V-Max and Honda's CB inline 4 or Honda's RC212V V4 would be a smart route for Indian to follow should they ever pursue it.
IF they stick with an I-4, then it's going to have smaller bores than the Triumph Rocket III or else that frame will need to be stretched
and it's going to be a even chunkier bike.

IF Indian wanted to, they could also build a parallel twin and get away with it.
I've got a V3 triple in mind that is a hybrid of a V-Twin and Parallel Twin. If I can dream that up, Indian could dream that up, too, and build it.

Oh and let's not forget the 841. You might think of a Moto-Guzzi.

I don't know, if HD's sound is what someone is looking for, they should buy an HD because nothing sounds like a HD not even the new 500 and 750 Street.
Also, Even if HD built a V4, it's is going to sound different than the V-Twin HD. The fart fart fart fart Harley sound will sound closer to a more singularly harmonious farrrrrrrrrt.
To hear each firing stroke you'd have to record and play back slo-mo. Perhaps play it backwards "mmm vi vip freddy is the devil mmmm vi vip freddy is the devil" (Thanks Robin.)

Whatever happens though, I agree on this point: it would be interesting to see Indian revive the 4 but which design application direction they choose to go with it, is
even more interesting in the face of market trends and fuel consumption. All I can presently see is a Yammy Honda competitor or a Triumph R3 competitor. With
note of a potential application in a Trike. It's definitely speculator's moment in the sun for the time being.

Drag Race 4?
MotoGP 4?
or
Utility Trike 4?
Interstate 4?


Who knows maybe several types of 4s? a Big block V4, a Small block v4, and perhaps Big and Small block I-4s in both longitudinal and
transverse mounting orientations.
That in of itself would be 8 separate power-plants in 8 separate model series. perhaps 4 for the Scout sized bikes and 4 for the Chief sized series.
on top of the current Thunder Stroke Chief and the "Lightning Strike" Scout. Which adds up to 10 different models, then come the twins and singles
between 250-1000cc range for the light to medium class bikes. and IF ..... IF they came out with a triple, it could also be a big block and small
block multi-orientation mount engine as well having at least one if not two or more bracketed cc size models. The future is what it is and it's anybody's
guess what comes next and what may or may not see the light of day and when.

As for a 4 (whatever it's incarnation):
When would they release it? Like you, and everyone else, I don't know, but I cannot imagine it to be a only year after the Scout's unveiling, though.
But somewhere down deep, I can sense it comin' provided the market is there for it.
Also I think with the Scout, they may want to wait a couple of years and get a reality check on consumer market reaction to the products just now
being released before they venture into other territories.

Indian has a LOT of potential. no doubt they could build it, but it's just up to the market and what will sell and that, right there is the make/break lynch pin
as to what ultimately turns up.

my opinion, free and worth every cent.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,192 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Twins...:) thank you for your thoughts!! Comments!! And no, I'm not thinking of a v-twin at all, or V-4..I thinking of a inline 4 as a stressed member similarly to scout size with the crank phased to fire as a 45degree twin but you would have a 4. Basically you would have a dual exhaust with the 45 degree single pin crank sound(harley have you) coming from each pipe.. The bike would sound as if two Harley's were running.
Husky did it with a parallel twin, and by using the nodding rod technology borrowed from Ducati, vibration can be nonexistent.
Husky was the first to ever do it.. If Indian built this 4 cylinder it would be a industry first.

This is the same out of the box thinking as the Yamaha R1 with a 90 degree phased crank. Giving it a unusual cadence.. But helps with traction in the corners on the race track.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
558 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,192 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Allen I re-posted the video so now you can see it on the thread.. I've never really looked at Indians before. What a interesting piece of machinery.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
468 Posts
Husky. just two things.

1) "Twinhit" is a proper name. My Great-Grandfather was a Chief and he bestowed his name and title to me. My Grandson will inherit the name and title when it is time.
2) With regard to the Nuda and the HD:
The HD 45 deg. V-Twin's knife and fork connecting rods share a common rod journal, do they not? And the Nuda P-twin's rods have their own journals, correct?
3) The nuda DOES sound good.

Do you have any more detailed info on the Nuda's engine, any with respect to visual comparison? Also info on the specific Ducati and the "nodding" rods, which sounds like a unique rod design type
which is canted or offset rod/wristpin design of some sort that affords a solution having a fringe benefit as seen in the Nuda.

Crower Cams may be an aftermarket consideration for a custom phased crank.
We used to have old timers around here that were building some of the wildest things in racing.
(Many still do but it's not the burgeoning scene it once was. - we have CARB and the x-nannies, and the market trends to thank for that)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
468 Posts
20543_0_1_4_dakota 4_Image credits - Dakota Motorcycles USA Inc.jpg

24847_0_1_4_dakota 4 classic_Image credits - Indian.jpg


My brief research yielded the following specs.

Displacement:1845.00 ccm (112.58 cubic inches)
Engine type:In-line four, four-stroke
Power:74.00 HP (54.0 kW)) @ 3800 RPM
Torque:168.10 Nm (17.1 kgf-m or 124.0 ft.lbs) @ 2650 RPM









Dry weight:325.0 kg (716.5 pounds)
Power/weight ratio:0.2277 HP/kg
Wheelbase:1,740 mm (68.5 inches)
Fuel capacity:18.00 litres (4.76 gallons)
Reserve fuel capacity:2.50 litres (0.66 gallons)



http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/indian_dakota_4_2003.php

http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/indian_dakota_4_classic_2007.php
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
468 Posts
Okay, so the Dakota Indian 4 is probably the latest "Indian 4" to show up on the market.
As you can see, it's a full size cruiser.

IF I were advising IMC, I'd not only suggest that they scrounge their own history but
that of the 4s from around the globe. Particularly in the racing field.

IF Indian were to develop a 4 bike, seeking outside involvement like HD collaborated with Porsche with the "V-Rod",
I get real serious about it:
Another interesting point to ponder is that of Red. And when it comes to some of the fastest machines in the world,
if there was one word that is practically universally recognized as being synonymous with red and speed, that would be Ferrari.

Scuderia Ferrari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ferrari Tipo 500 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ferrari Monza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again, if Indian chose to collaborate with another manufacturer from the automotive field, I'd certainly recommend
Ferrari as a top contender. Also, would recommend freelance designers who have MotoGP experience
who may have worked with renowned corporations on successful ground breaking game changer bikes.
Whether they be Italian, English, German, Japanese, Austrian.

However, I wouldn't recommend a repeat of a big cruiser.
America NEEDS a REAL RACE bike of it's own. Dominant in ALL the circuits, which means
multiple configurations.

Whether it's a V-Twin, P-Twin, I-3 Triple, VP-3 (hybrid V/Parallel), R-3 (radial), I-4, V-4, even a F-4 (flat 4) and F-Twin and of course the Single.

Cruisers are great, but where is the money????? In the opposite direction.

Indian Motocycle Co.'s heritage began in bicycles, it's founder, Mr. George Hendee, was a bicycle racer, himself.
Racing was Indian Motocycle Co. and Indian Motocycle was racing.

If Polaris wants to be authentic and true and respectful towards Indian's legendary past, it's going to require some
huge brass spheres.

To prepare for the future, as it pertains to sustainability, I'd also be advising Polaris to consider Hybrid/fossil fuel-electric.
Imagine affordable extreme lightweight-fuel efficient bikes for the masses that get upwards to 200 mpg and don't need to plug into the wall.

Remember, Indian is America's Oldest Motorcycle. It has to take charge and lead. To do that requires a lot of wisdom, know-how, resources
and marketing, R&D, an excruciatingly brutal racing program full of the brightest minds and visionaries in all their respective fields.
A great many challenges, to be sure.
It's off to a great start. Anything can happen.
Question is, will it happen? If so, when?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,192 Posts
Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Interesting, I wonder how they call it a Indian.. Because its not made by Polaris.. The final drive looks borrowed from a older BMW R bike.
No disrespect intended towards your screen name!

The Husky engine is a BMW f-800 engine modified. The nodding rod is connected to the crank with a third throw.. Like a triple. The rod is "L" shape short end to the crank, long end to a bearing. One extra moving part.. Way more efficient then the typical counter balance shafts..
With Harley's classic V-Twin, the very nature of the firing order is 315 degrees and 405 degrees. This is because of the 45 degree spacing between cylinders....315+45=360....405-45=360.. And just by chance? Makes the amazing sound it does.

The V-Rod like the Scout are at 60 degrees.. They can't sound like a Harley...

The Husky Throws are set at 315 degrees.. So it fires exactly like the Harley Classic V-twin..

Now put 2 of these twins together.. It would take a engineer to figure out how the crank throws would need to be placed... To see if it could even be made to run correctly..
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,192 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I would like to see it in the same type theme as the high tech scout.. Not a copy of a older heavyweight.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
468 Posts
Interesting, I wonder how they call it a Indian.. Because its not made by Polaris.. The final drive looks borrowed from a older BMW R bike.
No disrespect intended towards your screen name!

The Husky engine is a BMW f-800 engine modified. The nodding rod is connected to the crank with a third throw.. Like a triple. The rod is "L" shape short end to the crank, long end to a bearing. One extra moving part.. Way more efficient then the typical counter balance shafts..
With Harley's classic V-Twin, the very nature of the firing order is 315 degrees and 405 degrees. This is because of the 45 degree spacing between cylinders....315+45=360....405-45=360.. And just by chance? Makes the amazing sound it does.

The V-Rod like the Scout are at 60 degrees.. They can't sound like a Harley...

The Husky Throws are set at 315 degrees.. So it fires exactly like the Harley Classic V-twin..

Now put 2 of these twins together.. It would take a engineer to figure out how the crank throws would need to be placed... To see if it could even be made to run correctly..

It's actually a real name not a screen name and it's definitely older than the 20th century.

is this "Balance Rod and Rocker" what you are thinking of?
2013 BMW F800GS CRANKSHAFT/CONNECTING ROD/MOUNTING PARTS Parts, 2013 BMW F800GS CRANKSHAFT/CONNECTING ROD/MOUNTING PARTS OEM Parts - BikeBandit.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
468 Posts

Attachments

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,192 Posts
Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Twinhit, I would have to assume that is the Nodding Rod. I had not seen the parts detailed before. Just read about it. All I know is the reviewers loved the engine and they said in comparison, BMW F-800 is dull and uninspiring.

Its hard to put your finger on it!! But the 315 crank position make a sound that causes folks to be entertained..

Even with the Scout.. if i could order it with a crank that caused it, (a 60 degree motor) run like a 45 degree, it's a no brainer.

In the book "The Tao of the Ride, motorcycle mechanics of the soul" the author believes that the
315 firing order vibrates at the same frequency of the Mantle of the planet earth. Putting those who ride the bikes into some kind of Zen state! Of healing.

You can say what I'm presenting here is some kind of voodoo magic..but then explain to me the popularity of these over priced internal combustion fashion statements. These engines are used in everything, planes, boats, non harley customs. The biggest aftermarket base, in the world I bet!

The sound satisfies!! If you don't think so then I think the HD tribe, culture has put you off at some point.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top