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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)

Hi all,

I might as well share my experiences with my 2015 Vintage... just in case your were experiencing similar issues.

My Vintage has Indian Air Cleaner & Stage 1 (6 shooter). Since just after Christmas, I replaced with Rush Racing exhaust so it is even louder than Stage 1. I was hoping to drown out the engine clacking sound, which started at 5,000kms (but that is another story).

My issue is, when I ride the bike, the exhaust sound goes quiet... flat... or tame. Imagine your throaty exhaust sound disappearing and being replaced by stock exhaust sound (and sometimes, even quieter). Quiet state might last a few seconds or for last over half-an-hour (totally random and I cannot make it happen at will).

If your bike sounds great some days and not so great at other times, your bike might be experiencing the same issue as mine (possibly at a milder level), which would be difficult to detect as the sound would progressively go quiet and progressively return to normal.

Once I realised what was happening, it annoyed me to no end. Before I knew what was happening, when TS111 use to tame, I thought it was my ears! I've heard other car/bike engines/exhaust sounding 'a little different' between hot days and cold nights but nothing like this.

Over the past 6 months, it would go 'quiet' to a varying degrees (say 15% quieter than normal and then back to normal, then 30% quieter, than back to normal again and so on) throughout the ride. This happened most days. Although, sometimes, it stays normal (more or less) for a week or two. Melbourne dealer (specifically John) bent over backwards to help me and tried to duplicate the sound for himself but since the exhaust sound changes so progressively, it was difficult to detect.

Since April 2015, my bike did go 'extremely quiet' - I call it, '[email protected]' sound level (say '50% quieter' than normal) half-a-dozen times, but it only ever lasted for a few minutes.

I spent hundreds of hours reading everything about TS111 on Indian forums, spoke with several people more knowledgable and the most likely cause/explanation has been identified (not officially...).

Indian uses 'Easy Start' camshafts on TS111. There are 3 cams. One in the middle is for intake valves. The outer two are for exhaust valves. Those exhaust cams contain retractable lobe that automatically retracts once the engine starts. By opening up the valves a little, piston compression is reduced and makes it easier for the starter motor to crank. A few of us believe that this 'easy start' cams OR lobe retraction mechanism is not working properly causing my issues.

Recently, my wife and I took 2 weeks off and toured 3 states. During the trip, I had my GoPro strapped to my chest and manage to record the exhaust taming by pure chance.

Disclaimer: Please note that, YouTube does compress audio and the sound is less pronounced on this video than the uncompressed video file I have on my computer. Also, the listener is advised to use quality speakers when viewing. Built in speaks on a laptop or iPad are not suitable as deep bass sound cannot be replicated.

Anyway, for sh!ts 'n' giggles, here it is:



P.S. If you are super keen on the whole history, you can see the old thread here:

OLD THREAD
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
By the way, if you are interested in seeing 'Easy Start' cam in action, check out this video.

I apologise in advance for showing you a video with Harley in it. :)

By the way, it appears S&S did make our standard cams. Patent for design belongs to S&S.

Advance the video to: 1:30 mark.

 

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That S&S X Wedge engine (@1:40 mark) looks eerily similar to the TS111.

...and to stay on topic, No, #37's exhaust sound is pretty consistent. The only reduction in exhaust tone, I've noticed, depends on what I'm wearing on my head (ear covering). ;)

.
 

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I do notice that the exhaust note when the bike is not quite up to normal temp seems more pronounce and throatier. Once the engine is hot the exhaust seems more tame. I consider that to be normal, cooler oil and the engine is working a bit more. I highly doubt it is anything to do with the easy start cams. If the cams were hanging up you would have a serious decrease in performance. I am more likely to think it may have something to do with the exhaust baffles you have. Is any of what you are hearing related to the temp of the bike? Do you notice any change in power when the exhaust note goes flat. Engine ignition timing could have some effect on this but I would think that a change in power would also be noticed. Dean
 

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well ... maybe a hint:
I have been recently playing with my PCV tunes and noticed the following:
Exhaust tone gets tamer with a richer fuel mix! I have Rush warhorse too ... and on some very hot summerdays my exhaust tone/engine sound suddenly seemed to get much harsher at certain RPMs ... and I was concerned about pinging. So I enrichened my tune more ... and the harshness was gone ... very smooth idle ... but somehow tame cruise.

In your case the tone suddenly getting super tame could mean that your fueling is going rich temporarily. e.g. dirty air cleaner? Open/closed loop switching? Bad O2 sensor/cable in closed loop? Injector problem? Electrical gremlins ?
Jus some thoughts...

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The other day, on my Dark Horse with stock exhaust system, I noticed a tonal change in the exhaust sound... it suddenly got quieter. I chalked it up to me being borderline needing hearing aids. I have a computer code and a known and diagnosed problem with my O2 sensor and have one on order for replacement. That may explain the exhaust pitch changes, I don't know. I thought it might be worth mentioning.
 

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I watched that video 6 times and I have to say it sounds pretty normal. When you say it sounds normal you're accelerating heavily from a stop. That puts a greater load on the engine and you're giving it a lot more throttle input there. When you say it sounds flat you're not giving it the same amount of throttle and you aren't accelerating as much. I watched your throttle hand and the speedometer each time and it seems pretty normal to me. The key was toward the end of the video you give it a good amount of throttle and it sounds fine for a couple seconds and when you let off the throttle you say (in the video captions) it goes flat.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
#37's exhaust sound is pretty consistent...
Sounds like your #37 is a winner! My engine's top end sound changes too - you got a small taste in the video @0:52 mark onwards. Even when the exhaust does not go quiet, the engine/exhaust can sound 'dirty' (no longer a nice sound).
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
I watched that video 6 times and I have to say it sounds pretty normal.
I know what you are saying Mike but that is not the case. Granted that I rev out to 3,000rpm in 'Normal Example 2' but even when I blip the throttle, exhaust was considerably more quiet. Also, hill I was climbing normally adds more load on engine (did I mention I was two-up on the bike also) and it normally sound deeper then riding solo travelling on a flat road.

I had a bike following me up the hill and when we got to the top, he thought I had Jekyll and Hyde pipes where I can control the exhaust with a press of a button. Unfortunately, I don't have a recording from the back of the bike but it was even more drastic between 'normal' and 'quiet' when the video was taken. When we stopped soon after, even my wife said, 'What's wrong?' and noticed the bike exhaust taming... and she never notices that sort of stuff.

Listen out for the very deep sound in the video... that's the real exhaust sound. The other mid-range exhaust-like sound in the video is not as loud as it sounds in real life. Also, try listening with several other speakers/headphones.

...and thanks for watching my video so many times Mike. I appreciate your time investment. I have ridden 5 different TS 111 and no other bike does what my bike does. If you will, let's assume I can tell the difference between exhaust sound changing when there is not enough gas VS something not quite right.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I do notice that the exhaust note when the bike is not quite up to normal temp seems more pronounce and throatier.
Do you mean about the 'open loop' during the idle/warm up and 'closed loop' on the go? I do notice that idle sounds nice and deep but when the engine tames out to '[email protected]' level... that is, when it is very flat/quiet, even just free revving the motor sounds like a sawing machine whizzing.

I highly doubt it is anything to do with the easy start cams. If the cams were hanging up you would have a serious decrease in performance.
If the easy start lobe (for some reason) was sticking out a tinny bit, instead of fully protruding maybe? I still do have doubts about the tolerance of top end also. I have spoken with someone in the next state. His bike was puffing smoke from left exhaust on start up. Eventually, he got this top end rebuilt and he reported that his bike sounds more consistent and top end is much quieter.

Is any of what you are hearing related to the temp of the bike? Do you notice any change in power when the exhaust note goes flat. Engine ignition timing could have some effect on this but I would think that a change in power would also be noticed.
When it happens is totally random. Some cold nights, it could go tame. Other times, it could go tame on a hot day. As for performance, I'm not opening up the throttle full. I only rev up to about 3k. Only time I really open her up is getting on the freeway. I only do that to blow out the cobwebs but I don't enjoy it because the engine/top end sounds terrible (I don't mean just noisy, it is a horrible sound). When the bike only had about 1,000miles on the clock, if I launched hard from the lights, she would chirp the back tyre but I haven't had that in a long time. Power loss side is inconclusive.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Exhaust tone gets tamer with a richer fuel mix! I have Rush warhorse too ...So I enrichened my tune more ... and the harshness was gone ... very smooth idle ... but somehow tame cruise.

In your case the tone suddenly getting super tame could mean that your fueling is going rich temporarily. e.g. dirty air cleaner? Open/closed loop switching? Bad O2 sensor/cable in closed loop? Injector problem? Electrical gremlins ?
This is great post! Thanks. It is not the direction I have thought about yet. Anything is possible. I initially thought the cause might be electronics/sensor but I discounted for some reason and focused on easy start cams.

Everything you said sounds logical. And since you are running Rush pipes too, you will be able to hear the change more than others running stock pipes or stage 1.

Funny thing is, I was getting annoyed with top end noise and clacking issue I have. So I got louder pipes to drown out the engine sound. Now, when the engine goes tame, I notice it even more!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The other day, on my Dark Horse with stock exhaust system, I noticed a tonal change in the exhaust sound... it suddenly got quieter.
Would you mind sharing with me some more info?

Before Rush pipes when I had Stage 1, it was difficult for me to notice the exhaust taming when I was cruising. I would only notice when I stop at the set of lights and take off. That is when I hear the bike going tame.

Can you tell exhaust note changing when you were cruising OR only when you launch? Did the exhaust sound quiet if you revved the engine in neutral? Or did the bike have to be moving with some load on the engine? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
 

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Maybe you could get it dyno'ed. If you could duplicate it on the dyno you'd be able to see what's happening to the power and A/F ratio when it the sound changes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Maybe you could get it dyno'ed. If you could duplicate it on the dyno you'd be able to see what's happening to the power and A/F ratio when it the sound changes.
It is a good suggestion. But my Indian authorised dealer does not have dyno facility. The other problem is, I cannot make the bike 'do it'. I have been trying to film my bike playing up for 6 months because every time it goes in to the dealership, it comes back with, 'everything sounds good to me'. I can't even get them to test the compression. So far, all they did was replaced the stage 1 slip-ons.

I have an appointment tomorrow to meet with someone from Indian head office. If he says nothing encouraging, I am already in talks with sales to trade my 2015 Vintage (built June 2014) for 2016 Vintage (built Sep 2015). Maybe, Indian fixed tolerance issues and odds of me getting another dud may be minimal. I hope, anyway.
 

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I am not sure a dyno would be necessary. Having the bike hooked up to the computer while running reading the ECM outputs and inputs should give you enough insight. Ignition timing could be the factor but that should be seen in the real time diagnostics. Dean
 

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One other thing. You are complaining about engine noise. This may be a cam tensioner issue. If the tensioner is hanging up intermittently this could effect the cam timing and change the exhaust noise and would give some valve train noise. Just trying to think outside the box here. Dean
 

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V-Twin ... one more thing: I had a hell of a time to have my Rush mufflers tight at the clamps. I could feel exhaust gas pulsating near the clamps at idle with my bare hand.
Exhaust leaks can fool the O2s too when in certain low load and deccel situations you get gas reversion making the sensors see lean (or fresh air). Would make the ECU pump up the fueling ...


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