Not sure why you think this necessary @chillyBear to tear me down with pathetic over sized banners, helping members with there scouts suspension or asking questions relating to suspension, I don't always have a detailed answer for the questions I get asked, and I do at times get asked some very technical questions that requires detailed response and as such I draw from credible and reliable factual information contained in books or videos or will call and speck to suspension specialist that do this for a living for that information, so I only post the true facts and not misleading information about suspension setups, and will continue to pass that information on to whoever asks a question about suspension so they get the facts and not fiction. If you wont to know what I do look here: www.propeng.com.au

Many members on here are in a much better place with there scout suspension setup because of the work and help and free assistance and phone support that I provide about my DS suspension, I have stated in emails and in forums that I am NOT a suspension specialist, "however" I am a specialist in "my DS suspension"only with a good understanding of bike suspension general setups due to my time racing enduro's and because of that I was in a good position to do something about my scout suspension, one that I was able to pass onto other like yourself.

As I have stated before in threads and posts, the likes of Dave Moss and Race Teck and suspensions R us are just some of the credible and reliable sources of information to draw from and one that you or others can source to do so, and I will continue to do so to better improve myself with the knowledge in motorcycle suspension and as a source on the forum to help with there DS suspension setups.

 

I'm not in any way trying to disparage you or your product. I simply noticed that the words you had used as your own were duplicated at the Race Tech website, asked for clarity on it and then suggested you cite the words you were using if not your own in the future. I cannot see why that wouldn't be of benefit to everyone.

 

I would like to thank @DarkScout & @Hatt ( and any other contributing members) for volunteering your expertise and knowledge to this tread/forum. Both of these fellows have posted outstanding information that has been a great benefit to the forum community. They have sighted the experts they use as a guide and in the end have saved me and others time in performing analysis we couldn't perform on our own.

I am just in the process of ordering a DarkScout suspension and look forward to following Hatt's instructions for installation - well - with exception of the PBR - might have to have substitute BigRock or Kokanee in steps 1 & 12 instead.

 

I second everything Fidman said, other than I already had my rear darks scout suspension on and just put the new springs in today wow what a difference I'm blown away. I followed everything Hatt said I had a friend who is a mechanic for team Yamaha and he had the siphon for measuring the air gap so didn't need a ruler. Also I skipped the beer my assistants were handling that part
Hands down recommend this step by step also, my 2 cents you can use small wooden shims to seperate the fork clamps to avoid any damage on the paint by using a screw driver. Thanks be to Dark Scout, Jethro, and Hatt for every part of the installed they individually helped and collectively led to it's completion happy riding everyone I'm going to take me a nice cruise before bed time.

 

I started to work on replacing the springs - loosening bolts before I jack the front wheel - then I realized I didn't have a 16 mm Allan key or anything else that might work - so I searched the forum and found I can use a rod connector from Lowes - see Front Axle - What Size Allen Needed?.

So if you find yourself without the tool to remove the front wheel - go to lowes for a cheap fix.

 

@Hatt

Your instructions were awesome. No issues - actually quite easy with the step my step instructions. Thanks for taking the time to break down the process.

 

@Hatt

Your instructions were awesome. No issues - actually quite easy with the step my step instructions. Thanks for taking the time to break down the process.

I'm really glad it helped you get the most out your bike!
I appreciate the sentiment! Reminds me why I do it!
I'll be doing some more soon on other aspects too!
Ride long and prosper!

 

you saved quite a bit of DIY compared to stealer $100 + or - rates + the satisfaction factor is best!!!

 

Thank you Hatt for a great write up giving me, and others, the confidence to get this done.
I have a few questions I hope you can shed some light on.

Step 13.
Add fork oil.
Your goal is to have 160mm from top of oil level inside fork, to top of fork tube while fork is collapsed, and empty of spring and spacer.

The manual from Progressive Springs says 140mm aircap. Is the 160mm just for the DarkScout-kit, or would I benefit using 160mm on the Progressive Springs kit as well? (And why, if such case?)

Step 14.
Put in spring and spacer kit as shown.
View attachment 43469

The manual from Progressive Springs says tight coils down, you use tight coils up.
Recently reading a review of a Fireblade, they wrote, "The fuel tank i made of titanium to avoid weight high up on a motor cycle, which is not preferable....."
Shouldn't the tight coils be down to
1: Avoid the main weight of the spring it self bein on top, "pushing" it down.?
2: To avoid weight high up on a motor cycle.?

Replace fork cap being carefull to not cross thread. This may be the most challenging part. Be patient, and mindful of where the thread begins, I push down, turn back wards till I feel a slight click, indicating beginning of thread, then turn forward to tighten.

How to I mount the fork tubes to being able to push down on the cap.
I do not have a vice or such, as my workshop simply is on doing the work on the pavement outside my house.
I am afraid if I mount the fork tubes on the bike again, and push down, it will tilt my bike forward, off the jack.

Hope Hatt, or others can help me to a better understanding of my 3 questions.

Tor

 

Thank you Hatt for a great write up giving me, and others, the confidence to get this done.
I have a few questions I hope you can shed some light on.


The manual from Progressive Springs says 140mm aircap. Is the 160mm just for the DarkScout-kit, or would I benefit using 160mm on the Progressive Springs kit as well? (And why, if such case?)


The manual from Progressive Springs says tight coils down, you use tight coils up.
Recently reading a review of a Fireblade, they wrote, "The fuel tank i made of titanium to avoid weight high up on a motor cycle, which is not preferable....."
Shouldn't the tight coils be down to
1: Avoid the main weight of the spring it self bein on top, "pushing" it down.?
2: To avoid weight high up on a motor cycle.?


How to I mount the fork tubes to being able to push down on the cap.
I do not have a vice or such, as my workshop simply is on doing the work on the pavement outside my house.
I am afraid if I mount the fork tubes on the bike again, and push down, it will tilt my bike forward, off the jack.

Hope Hatt, or others can help me to a better understanding of my 3 questions.

Tor

Thank you for taking the time to read, and even more thanks for grabbing it by the horns and making it happen!.
Air gap. This controls the very last bit of your forks travel.. this is the difference of bottoming out, or not..
DS found that 160, was a better deterrent for bottoming out than 140. I found the same.
For accuracy, the DS full kit I have uses progressive brand springs.

You are right. The ultimate goal is to reduce weight high up on a bike.
But what is also true, is you also want to reduce unsprung weight in a suspension system as well.
the effect of the weight of the heavy tight springs on top, to the over all motorcycle is negligible compared to that weight being at the lower suspension as unsprung weight. I feel it is the better of evils. This allows the suspension to react faster thus do a better job.
Now I realize that progressive recommends up,, but in any custom high dollar, life is on the line suspension I've had built for my race bikes, and on every car I've built, and according to many others, tight coils up.
However, if you would like to follow the progressive, there would be no issue with that, as it's a street bike.. I just like to follow general engineering and typical set ups I've seen.
It's just what I've always been told to do, and seen other experts do as well.

Now keep in mind, adjusting any of these perimeters, is easy to do later, with out dis assembly, as needed. All suspension numbers we are given,, should be regarded as a starting point. Often tuning will be required for best results.. if help is needed on that later, check back here and I'll help.

On the caps,, I found I was able to hold the fork in the extended position needed to install caps, by grabbing upper fork tube, and resting it against lower tube fork seal, acting as a stopper, while pushing cap down with hand using the socket as a handle to turn cap. I found the Scout to have less pre-load on most bikes and didn't require much effort to push spring down.
If that doesn't work for you, you can put the caps on AFTER you re-assemble the built forks to bike and use the bike to hold for you. Counter act your pushing down, with another hand by pulling up on bike, or call a bud or neighbor over for some assistance. Again though, youll find there is not as much tension as one would expect.
Good luck and keep us posted.

 

Thank you for clearing up my questions. It all makes more sense now.

 

OK, so did the fork today following post #1 of this topic.
Not only was it very easy. It was very fun too.

In my setup, 2015 Scout, rider weight 86kg/190lbs, I went with:
Progressive Springs
Tight coils up
Spacers cut to 36mm
15W Fork Oil from Eni
160mm Aircap

The front is quite better now. Not a big woaw-out-of-this-world-difference, but noticable to the better side.
It now really reveals how bad the back suspension is. So getting new shocks some time soon will happen.
Again, a very fun procedure to do.

1. The unscrew POP! many of us fear is nothing to write about. It is very gentle.
2. Getting the end cap back on is no problem at all. Not very much pressue on the sping, and it is very easy to get back on without cross threading.
(My tip is to mark the cap and top fork tube where the threads start, before you insert the spacer. Then when ready to fit the cap, line the marks up, do a small unscrew twist (anti-clockwise), and the go for the full clockwise.)

Ooohh... And for the trivia.
To get 160mm aircap, I used 255ml of oil in each fork tube.
If you want 140mm aircap, (like Progressive Springs suggest), you need 270ml of oil in each fork tube.
The Scout 2015 service manual says each fork tube has a capacity of 335ml.
My math tells me that would be about 50mm from the top, and not much aricap at all when the end cap is back on.

 

The air gap of 160mm can be one part of the front suspension setup that you can adjust as @Hatt has mention it controls the very last 30% of your forks travel as in, how it feels when the fork has used 70% of its compression stroke and now has moved into the last 30% of its full travel. the air gad acts like an air cushioning, the more air gap you have 160mm the softer that cushioning will be, the less air gap you have 130mm the harder that cushioning will be, 130 high impact 160 low impact.

So basically if your a high speed hard impacts and an aggressive type rider that's like to ride hard a 130 to140 air gap can be used, if you say your a cruiser type slow speed rider that's like to ride at or around the town and just open cruisers the open highways at the speed limits a 150 to160 air gap can be used, worth noting that the air gap values are a starting point only you will need to determine what's right for you and your riding style.

Oil weights also play a big part in the suspensions rebound, that's how fast the suspension returns after an impact, 20wt for oil is recommended because the scouts has no valving to speak off, the only part that controls the rebound are 4 small holes at the bottom of the dampening rod, this is the scouts rebound circuit or lack off it, oil is compressed through the 4 holes, to thin of oil will result in a bouncy or springy front end this is very bad for cornering and overall handselling, the only way that you can control this is either install race tech emulators or change oil weight to 20wt fork oil, a thicker oil moves through the holes in the dampening tube slower and in return slows down the rebound and inturn takes out the bouncing on the front forks.

 

Progressive recommends 10wt oil on the 17 models. Did this valve process change for the 17' model or would sticking with 20wt still be okay? Thank you!

 

Thanks for the info

 

@Hatt Would you mind adding the size hex and what was needed to remove the front tire to the post? Great write up!!! It's super helpful!! Also, was it hard to realign the forks when you finished?

 

Thanks for the heads up! I didn't realize I forgot that Lil gem of knowledge!
Unfortunately, my Scout is out getting the big bore kit and I can't find my stock fork caps to get a size from!? (Ruh roh!) So, if you could let me know the size, I will add that.. thanks again!
On the forks oil, it seems we have found a happy place in Maxima brand oils rating of 15-20 wt. Range.
But as rodhotter states, they don't stay consistent from brand to brand..

 

At least on the '15 (and '16?) the hex for the front axle is 16mm. I hadda order one too. Fortunately a buddy had one that let me do the job until I got mine for the toolbox.

 

as i have noted in the past "weight" varies by manufacturer, you want to know centistoke of the fluid. one manufacturers 10W can be a LOT heavier than another as there is NO set rules for classification like engine oils. peterverdone/suspension.com will explain + show the ACTUAL viscosity of mant fork fluids in centistokes!!

 

Oh I forgot about a manufactured fork oil being different between brands and used a different brand then progressive. Guess I’ll have to wait and see what happens. I think I used Bel Ray brand 10w since it said used 10wt for the 17 model. Hmmm well guess I’ll see how it rides in a bit since it’s mostly put back together now. 10wt is 10wt was my thinking....surprised there is no standard. Hopefully most brands are close to each other.

It was a 16 sized hex. Odd size ended up special ordering it as no local hardware stores carried it. Front fork caps is 30mm socket. Hope that helps someone.

 

Oh I forgot about a manufactured fork oil being different between brands and used a different brand then progressive. Guess I’ll have to wait and see what happens. I think I used Bel Ray brand 10w since it said used 10wt for the 17 model. Hmmm well guess I’ll see how it rides in a bit since it’s mostly put back together now. 10wt is 10wt was my thinking....surprised there is no standard. Hopefully most brands are close to each other.

It was a 16 sized hex. Odd size ended up special ordering it as no local hardware stores carried it. Front fork caps is 30mm socket. Hope that helps someone.

Shame! shame! You didn't read thoroughly!
I did include on 2 occasions the 30mm. But I have the wrong Axel hex size. So I'll correct that! Thanks again for the input! It much appreciated!
Good luck with your scoot, and I look forward to you report!

 

staying with the same brand suspension fluid allows accurate changes in the actual viscosity regardless of the actual # + like engine oils you get similar additives. forks don't move near as much as rear shock-s so a mid viscosity index which determines the fluids change with riding + weather is fine. Redline gives you a mixing guideline for their top of line high index fluids.

 

I'm willing to give Progressive some credit: On the '15 and '16 bikes, the recommendation from them was 20W oil; on the '17-on, 10W. Seriously doubt that a company that's been around as long as they have did that blindly.

 

Yes they did do it blindly and very poorly at that, and they got that information from this forum, to use 20wt fork oil from what I and others have posted on this forum during 15 & 16 years.

The only reason they stated on there website to uses 10wt fork oil was from what they were reading at the time on this forum during 2017, not having undergone or conducted or any development suspension testing on the scout, if they had they would have known that, that's what's already installed by the factory in the 15 - 17 scouts, so they assumed from what they were reading on the forum that 10wt was the correct weight fork oil to used in replace of the already 10wt OEM fork oil, "AMAZING", and I give them credit for what?, have they indicated what fork oil weight or even what spring rates would be recommended for the 2018 scout if needed as it not long before the 2019 scout model to be anounced.

 

Dark, you post a lot talking about how bad every other company is, and how they don’t know anything, but I have not come across any thread where you’ve actually given any information to help anyone out.

 

progressive suspensions are midpoint at best, lots of HD applications because their soooo bad stock!! better built shocks etc are built for the rider + generally off the shelf one size fits most DON'T!!

 

If you are thinking about installing the Progressive fork springs on a a 2018 Bobber, they WILL NOT fit. Music City Indian ordered them for my bike and yes, the supplier's site stated they would be compatible but they are not. Here's an excerpt from my dealer when he reached out to let me know.

Morning Scott,

Your bike is all but done. Joey will test ride it this morning sometime.

They had to take an impact drive to the right fork leg cap and it is a little marred up. If needed I will replace it for you.

So.....the progressive shocks that we thought would work....DO NOT. We had the legs off and went to install and they are not compatible with the 2018 bikes even though the supplier's site says otherwise.

We called Progressive direct and found out after tearing the bike down.

Will refund the cost of the shocks.

JE

Thanks,

Joel Ellis
Music City Indian

 

Dark, you post a lot talking about how bad every other company is, and how they don’t know anything, but I have not come across any thread where you’ve actually given any information to help anyone out.

WOW.......... this comment just blow me away, and its DarkScout "but I have not come across any thread where you’ve actually given any information to help anyone out" once I picked myself off the floor had my morning coffee, did you actually do any research or use the search function on this forum before making this comment, common tell me the truth, here is a quick search of a list that took 5 min in the search section, let me know if this is of any help to you, this counts as help rite..

This is a list of me not helping:

http://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/lets-talk-scout-suspension-setup.7191/

http://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/dark-scout-suspension-review.19436/

http://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/traxxion-suspension-vs-dark-scout.75129/

http://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/look-mum-no-more-bumps.13280/
http://www.indianmotorcycles.net/th...t/threads/ikon-front-and-rear-suspension-install-on-my-scout.13825/#post-230951

http://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/fork-oil-capacity.9478/

http://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/observations-on-emulators-front-forks.9067/#post-165564

http://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/race-tech-suspension.8515/#post-151144

http://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/quick-question-about-rear-suspension.11174/

http://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/inside-diameter-scout-fork-tube.14492/#post-240643

http://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/dark-scout-sport-shocks.16032/

http://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/dark-scout-suspension.192001/#post-2270417

Did you even read this thread before making that comment but you also can see on other forums, of me not been very helpful such as here:

Indian Motorcycle Forum | Australia & New Zealand

DS Classic Custom Twin Shocks | Indian Rider - Indian Motorcycle Forums

So as you can see by using the search function on the forum you get quit a lot or do I need to send you 3 to 4 years of emails and PM,s from members from this forum and other forums of me not helping scout owners with there suspension along with international phone calls from scout owners that don't have custom suspension, I know for fact that some member have joined this forum so they can seek my help with scout suspension setup and I do so for free, the issue you and some others are having is that when it comes to suspension for the scout I tell it like it is and I don't sugar coat it, and at times I do come across very blunt and to the point, but do you think your comment was correct with me not helping, in fact with your help I'm doing it know by letting members know that Progressive have not conducted any development testing of there products on any 15 - 17 scout to know if the product works as they have stated.

Oh so to address you other comment "Dark, you post a lot talking about how bad every other company is, and how they don’t know anything"

You say I post a lot about other company's not knowing anything, can you tell me now which company's you are refiring to that I'm saying that about? I can tell you now that there are only one internet business that I am having issues with and it's not because of the product in general, believe it or not, it's the misleading information that they are useing to sell their product for a motorcycle that they have not undergone product testing on, and this could not be more evident by offering 3 shock lengths, this is the same approach for selling HD customers this indicates they have no knowledge about the scouts suspension at all.

They have simply used the same template as they have used for selling Harley Davison suspension and think that its the same for the 15- 17 scouts, they could not be more wrong in this approach, but potential customers don't know this and why would they, as they think they are buying from a suspension shop that knows and has knowledge in the scout suspension, so the scout owner can end up buying the wrong product that is not intended for the scout but for a HD and can loose more money, if they posted the correct information then I would not have any issue.

I'm calling Progressive out on this, and that's for use misleading information to sell a product for a scout motorcycle, and this is the ONLY issue I'm having, not with member that have that product.

 

MEEOooooooowwh!

 

In Darkhorse’s defense, he IS willing to help, but he is kinda tough on those that don’t follow the whole/complete ideology . For instance , he will give you hell if you bought the 413 shocks ( because they are not adjustable for dampening), even though you probably ended up with a better riding bike. He believes Progressive co. Should provide info for their products for the individuals needs of ( weight,Rider,luggage,etc.) if Progressive did go through all this testing for set up, the fork springs would cost a lot more. And he is right about the whole bit about changing shock length as (bad info )on Progressives behalf IMO,Longer ? this could seriously alter the handling of the bike. The stock OEM length should always be the same as the replacements- unless you are lowering and willing to deal with the issues this causes. I used to race a long,long time ago. Suspension set up was/is crucial. If I buy the front fork springs from Progressive suspension co. (I did), I know I will spend time disassembling/assembling the forks to tune correctly for my weight /bike etc.( I will). The length of the spacer will be specific to me/ my bike. Progressive co. Did not do this homework for you or me in any weight ranges.This is what Darkhorse’s suspension package is all about ( having done the testing at all levels to provide a drop in package that will work very good right off the bat. However Only some will want cough up this kind of money to do so, taking their chances buying a product that they feel will improve/ fix their suspension woes. If you buy the springs from Progressive and take to your mechanic what length spacer or oil will he put in ? Are you willing to take apart and keep trying different lengths untill you get it right ? Do you know how to dial in the rear shocks? Or know if/when you have a dampening/ rebound problem v/s a spring tension/ rate problem ? Or both ? On the flip side - if you are willing to study a bit , be patient and have the ways and means to experiment, you can save a lot of money and get it right or very close. You just can’t count your time as part of the cost. If you do/ or will count your time as too valuable,then bite the bullet and buy a package deal where someone has done the homework for you. Sorry for the long post.

 

I don't think it was to long a post at all @rodent62 ..... in fact I think you nailed it quite well not as long as post #151

 

If when buying suspension from a company, and your NOT asked for your weight as you ride, and Riding intent, walk away.
Your just buying another wrong shock for 3 times the money of the wrong shock currently on your bike.

 

... unless you learn that other riders of your weight and riding style find that suspension a big improvement on stock. I certainly found the Progressive Springs and recommended weight of oil an improvement when I had a Scout, and I found the advice of those with a lot more expertise who would pour scorn on the product to be confusing and impenetrable. Perfectionists are great (I'm one myself in areas where I have expertise) but it's a shame when fear of not being perfect stands in the way of significant improvement. This is not a criticism of those who are much more expert than me, just a plea not to rubbish those of us who struggle to attain to those heights but can at least make some improvement.