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Front fork oil and springs.

50K views 197 replies 34 participants last post by  Yorkshire_Bobber_777  
#1 · (Edited)
Ok, so im a lil later than I wanted but hey, life happens.
I wanted to give a lil peak into switching the fork springs to @DarkScout spec, for folks that may be on the fence involving the labor involved in doing the job.. my write up is geared toward the person, that has a held a wrench, and can fog a mirror while held to its nose.. its often perceived as an intimidating or very technical job.. when taken one step at a time, its achievable to even a novice wrench..
everyone does things a lil different, this is how I do mine..

Things you need.
The ability to lift front of bike enuff to remove front wheel.
15 weight fork oil
6mm Allen
8mm Allen
Flat blade screwdriver.
16mm Allen (in a pinch the back of sparkplug socket may work, I've done it in the past though haven't confirmed on scout)
30mm socket
A ruler. Or a means to measure fork oil air cap. I always make a tool that pre measures.


Pre measured to 160mm
Large syringe, hosing and zip ties and a bike spoke to keep hose straight. Un trimmed zip tie is the guide stop for measurement. more on that later..

First, I always break loose all bolts you know you will have to remove before lifting bike.
These will be
Fender. Brake caliper. Axel pinch bolt and Axel stud.

Its time to lift the bike.
I use a standard lift, and for added assurance I also use a ratchet strap hung from garage rafter.



Now, we can get at it!!

Step one. Open a Beer.


Step 2.
I like to mark fork tube orientation with a marker. Its more relevant to older, high mileage or wheelied bikes, to make sure it goes together as it was.

Step 3.
Remove brake caliper, dont let it hang from hose.
Use something to hang it, or, use Indians specially made perch to set it on like this.


Lol!


Step 4.
Remove wheel.
Weight of bike will shift at this point, so be mind full.

Step 5.
Remove fender.

Step 6.
Loosen triple tree fork bolts,
I like to take a flat blade screwdriver and gently tap into clamp to open it up a bit to aid in sliding fork tube from triples. It doesn't take much, just enough to stay put.



Step 7.
Loosen fork caps.
I slide the for tube down past the upper triple but leave in lower with enough clearance to get 30mm socket and driver on to fork cap.
Like the above picture.
Remove flat head, and snug up lower triple pinch bolt. With your hand hold down on socket, to assure from slipping give the handle a quick rap and it will break loose, with minimal mark on the cap..



Step 8.
Remove fork tube.
Loosen triple clamps you snugged up and slide fork tube out. You are now about to re spec your fork!

Step 9.
Remove factory spring, spacer and oil.
Using some care remove fork cap.
Now keep in mind, its under some spring pressure, its not a whole lot, but, will require a lil bit of anticipation.. think like popping a cork champagne bottle, some hand on the cap, and some on the fork tube to keep things under control after you breach last thread!



Step 10.
Remove factory spring, spacer and washer.
They will come out like this.


If you notice the tight wind coils are on bottom.. aka, upside down.. generally fork springs have the coils up, to reduce unsprung weight.

Step 11.
Drain old fork oil.
Pour it out, and extend and retract fork to work out as much old oil as possible.

Looks like ATF..Smells like ATF..
Feels like ATF.. tastes like ATF..
Must be ATF.. dont step in it...



You are now, about to start going the the other way, back together!

Step 12.
Open a Beer.



Step 13.
Add fork oil.
Your goal is to have 160mm from top of oil level inside fork, to top of fork tube while fork is collapsed, and empty of spring and spacer.
Add oil while Taking a guess at that measurement.
Work fork for a bit to work out air bubbles when that is achieved by the lack of squishing sound, dial in your measurement. Again, this measurement is taken with fork collapsed!
I use the over fill, then remove method with aforementioned pre measured tool.


Put hose down fork tube up to zip tie, Suck out oil til it slurps and BAM! You have a 160mm air cap!

Step 14.
Extend fork.
Assemble @DarkScout kit.
Put in spring and spacer kit as shown.

Now, the small washer was not addressed in any information I had.. I did put it back in for an even mating surface to the spacer. I realize if it is not spec'd to be there, I will have slightly raised spring preload. I gave it a shot, and it set up just fine with it, and have been riding it as such and have no desire to change it. Its perfect for me.

Replace fork cap being carefull to not cross thread. This may be the most challenging part. Be patient, and mindful of where the thread begins, I push down, turn back wards till I feel a slight click, indicating beginning of thread, then turn forward to tighten. Be mindful and you will be fine.. I found using the socket as a handle was very helpful.
Torque cap.

Now give the fork tube a few bounces, and check operation, I didnt have it with this bike, but I have had some instances on other bikes where it was kinda squeaky sounding at first, but after a dozen or so boings, it goes away, dont panic. If it never goes away is another thread.
Slide fork back in to marks, make sure they are even,, torque to spec.

Your forks are done!

Step 15
Open a Beer.



Step 16.
Reassemble the wheel, brake and fender.
Torque Axle stud to spec.

Step 17.
Lower bike and give it some good bounces,, once you have determined it operates freely, torque Axle pinch bolt to spec. Re check operation, Then torque brake caliper and fender.


Thanks @Alpal for the torque specs!

For set up tips go to @DarkScout excellent set tips at prop engineering

Things I ran across while doing this,, was the upside down springs.
The factory fork oil amounts were not equal.
The forks were uneven in triples by about a 1/16.

Thanks for reading and have more fun then I did with this write up!
 
#76 ·
Well, it's not a long-term report, but hopefully it'll be of some use: I went out and did something over 100 miles today. Combination of town (limited), twisties, secondary, and good two-lane road. It included some roads I'd ridden that were unpleasant before the spring swap.

As the Brits would say: Full marks! I know it's not a sportbike, but the underlying chassis is really good. Now the suspension is on par, and the bike tracks the line very well, without running wide or any sort of dips or weaves from surface irregularites. As far as ride quality goes, I'd put it this way: Instead of seeing some sort of pavement problem and thinking OH s**t... or hitting something and getting BAM...arrrrgh, it's really more common to be able to concentrate on the ride and cornering, and occasionally think, "oh, huh, there was a bump there." Now, it's not a Gold Wing either, so there were a couple of "shocks," but overall, much more comfortable.

Would I change anything? I don't think so, not for my size. I think it will be fine two-up as well, as Miz Cognito is fairly small too. If anything, next fluid change, I might buy 20wt and blend up 17.5 with what's left of the 15, but at this point, I dunno. HTH!
 
#83 ·
It was my pleasure budd!
I hope it ends up being useful to ya!
Was definitely useful Hatt :D
Did a full suspension install on Tuesday with a DS Custom setup. The rear is relatively straight forward and quick and following your instructions for the front reckon the whole job took just over 2 hours.
Have to give a shout out to DarkScout as well. Anyone looking at a new suspension setup. His custom shocks are awesome and his customer service is excellent. can't recommend this guy enough.
 
#84 ·
That's fantastic! Hearing it helped you is what makes it all worth it, knowing there's a bloke as chuffed as you (when in Rome) Is why I did it! Thanks again!
And ya, I too have @DarkScout s full set up, and can't recommend his stuff enuff! I've said a bunch of times, I've spent lots on set ups,, but never got the return on my dollar like I had with his set up.. so yes, I will give him some ups too!
Cheers!
Ride long and prosper!
 
#88 ·
I'm a couple weeks from my 15,000 mile fork oil change which I really don't want to do I'd rather upgrade if I'm going to spend money.

So if I did the front with the Dark Scout recommendation but left the rear as is until having the money to do that is that going to be an issue or do I have to do both at the same time?
 
#89 · (Edited)
They say It's always recommended to do both.. and most times, I'd say the same as they... however on the scout, having experienced the stock suspension, I can say with great confidence, that doing the front end alone at first will still be safe, and lucrative. In fact, if your adding spring you would be matching it to the rear better than stock layout.. but, the damping will still be off..
I'd go as far as saying, the scouts factory suspension is an example of what a bike feels like with the mismatched suspension we've all been warned about.
So go ahead my friend.. the front wheel is your main wheel anyways, so it won't hurt getting that one tuned first on this bike.
But PLEASE don't slack on getting the rears done asap! You won't regret it.. it will make the other moneys you've spent on the bike for other bits questioned! Ya, it's that good..lol
Cheers!
 
#91 · (Edited)
Short report; hopefully this is a reasonable place to put it so that folks find it.

I installed Progressive Suspension springs last week. No knock on Dark Scout or other sources, but I had easy access to PS, and had good experiences with them on other bikes in the past. In addition, I went with 15W oil because, well...I'm a lightweight. 130# in my skivvies, <160 in riding gear. I also went with the recommended 36mm preload spacers. Call me lazy, but I haven't confirmed sag yet. I just went out and rode the thing.

Just. Wow. Not only is the ride more comfortable, but I don't have to worry about the front end anymore entering turns or on choppy pavement. Great stuff.

HTH.
Just got my Progressive suspension springs will be doing them this weekend .Im 190 # was wondering if I should go with 20 wt oil and a little more spacer .How do you like them now after a few rides and did you install them tight coil down like they said to in the info pac as well as a 140mm air gap ?
 

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#95 ·
Looks like they changed the valving in the 17 yr models .To change the recommended weight from 20 to 10 ??
I've always put tight coils up.
I'm about 200# and run 15wt. On my 15.
I like the set up as such. But, that's me .
I was hoping that Brother Hatt would chime in on the oil. From what I read, and I believe that DS recommends, a lot of folks have gone with 20WT. I think there was a change in the valving, but I can't confirm it. I think though, that Progressive recommended 10WT in my instructions, which I ignored. I did use the 140mm air gap.

If you and he are that close in size, the standard preload should be good.

Is anyone running DS Front with the OEM FOX on the rear? I had the fox upgrades put on when I purchased the bike and I'm not sure which front upgrade I should do...
That's what I have. I'm sure that either the PS or DS front setup would work great for you.
 
#98 · (Edited)
nice write up, damper rod forks are pretty simple. that procedure costs $$$$$ at the stealers = can be done at home. i get great satisfaction besides $$$$ for beers + gas + the parts for upgrades doing my own work!! be aware all 15W or whatever fork fluids ACTUAL VISCOSITY varies, in other words one 15 W suzuki branded is 15.8 centistokes @ 40 C actual viscosity where as Torco fluid still branded a 15W is 33 centistokes also @ 40c almost twice as much! this info + more can be found @ peterverdone.com
 
#99 ·
Thanks Holmes!
I did it to show exactly what you said..
I that many out there, that maybe be in doubt, can in fact likely do more at home then they think, and in hopes they to can share in that satisfaction of the DYI we are fortunate enough to be able add to the cycling experience...
To much? OK.
it gives a reason to drink beer and that's good enough for me...
Cheers!
 
#100 ·
Ok, I just placed the order for the DS Front springs to go along with my upgraded OEM Fox rear suspension ... I'm a little confused on the fork oil after reading all of this. What brand and weight (20?) fork oil should I get? I am between 205-215lbs with gear depending on the day :) Any other tips for my weight are appreciated. I would like to get this right the first time!

Thanks!
 
#102 · (Edited)
Polaris does not give specs to compare. top quality fork fluids tell you the centistoke spec the actual viscosity. when not available be sure to stick with the same manufacturer if you need thicker or thinner fluids + they can be blended for fine tuning, again redline has a chart on peterverdone.com on blending. you could ask dark scout what brand + its centistoke spec he uses for a starting point. it says most damper rod units use a 34 centistoke @ 40 degrees celsius although depending on the firmness you want a thicker fluid is used. fork springs support the bikes weight + the fluid along with the internals either damper rods, cheap + easy or a cartridge is inside, USD forks are generally cartridges but conventional forks used in most bikes can have damper rods or cartridges, + although costly aftermarket cartridge units are available for most forks for superior ride + control!! simply put engine oils are tested + are classified at the viscosity tested, fork fluids have NO standardized testing hence their varied viscosity @ the same advertized number
 
#104 ·
This pickle,,, is the reason I'm developing the adjustable fork cap...
If I was in your shoes,, here's what I'd do..
Weigh your self with your gear on.. and go in between that and your target weight..ie 260 geared up now, but you plan on gettin to 230 geared.
Get springs for 245.
If they are a bit to lite at present, adding pre-load is simple enuff, and as such to remove..
Oil can be changed with a hand held vacuum pump.by only removing caps...
 
#106 ·
its not just the springs as they carry the weight mostly, the damping is controlled by your internals. theres only so much can be done with 1940's damper rod technology, some use devices like gold valves to simulate a cartridge but if you have the $$$ or intend to keep the bike a cartridge unit tuned for you is best!!
 
#107 · (Edited)
I have no affiliation with Race tech, they are a would class leaders in bike suspension and have used there products in the past on my KTM when I raced Enduro competitions, I also used the Race Tech emulator in my scout during development of the DS suspension, the suspension Manual is by far one of the finest I have use in my time racing endure events to assist in race proven setups and continue to draw from the technical knowledge that race tech offer now and in the future.
 
#108 ·
Ok I'm getting more and more confused please bear with me. So your recommendation and what comes in the kit is a progressive spring and you're explaining the product with a paragraph from the Race Tech website that is explaining why they prefer straight over progressive?
 
#113 ·
It's pleasing to see your resurching what suspension will work best for your scout and finding out about straight wound over a progressive design spring.

The best guy I have seen talk and explain in good technical talk about suspension is Dave moss, I have quoted his suspension how to videos on the forum quite often as Dave Moss explains it so much better than I could, you can find his how to's video on YouTube under sportsbikewrech and on the throttle.
 
#116 ·
The best guy I have seen talk and explain in good technical talk about suspension is Dave moss, I have quoted his suspension how to videos on the forum quite often as Dave Moss explains it so much better than I could, you can find his how to's video on YouTube under sportsbikewrech and on the throttle.
It would be very helpful for me and maybe others if you'd cite the source when doing so because not only:


Image


but also so we could go further into what they may have to offer on the subject.

I'm looking at a lot of different sources and it helps when others endorse a particular individual or company when you're learning a subject so you can trust what you're committing to memory and or trying to process is accurate. Once I understand it fully I'll be able to weed through it but for now to say <insert name> is a great resource is very helpful.

Thanks again.
 
#114 ·
@Hatt and @DarkScout Thank you for the write ups and a direction to go in . Last night I replaced the front springs and fluid . Hatt I see you seem to have had ATF in there where as I seem to have motor oil " muddy brown and super thin . Although too late and wet out to take it out I cant wait to give it a good trouncing tonight .Hopefully the pogoing effect I had at 80 + will be resolved . So far This is what was done Progressive suspension spring kit ,20wt Spectro fork oil ,45 MM spacers . I weigh 190 do mostly 2 up riding with a 110 wife . Will have to see if adjustments are needed but at least I now have a base to start with . Progressive 444S are on order 11.5 standard springs ,will be here on Tuesday .Hoping that's all it takes to put me in love again.
 
#115 · (Edited)
looked up your spectro 20W on peterverdone/suspension its 65 centistokes @ 104F quite heavy but as it warms with use it specs at 8.90 centistokes @ 212 F a lot thinner, so you will be somewhere between because fork fluids rarely gets that hot unlike shock fluids that do. an example of my statement Motorex 10W racing fluid is almost as thick @ 104 @ 52 centistokes but almost the same at 212F!!!! like motor oils its low viscosity index @ 110 compared to Redlines in the 300 range indicates a lower quality mineral base fluid, + thats why the big viscosity change with testing temperatures, like cheaper motor oils that get very thick-less vicious @ colder temps. as i read on it notes fork very small heat increase, on a 70F day fork fluids run in the 78F range where shocks see 150F because they work harder. the benefit of high viscosity fluids is little change viscosity as temperatures change much like engine oils.
 
#117 ·
Lol,
It would be very helpful for me and maybe others if you'd cite the source when doing so because not only:


Image


but also so we could go further into what they may have to offer on the subject.

I'm looking at a lot of different sources and it helps when others endorse a particular individual or company when you're learning a subject so you can trust what you're committing to memory and or trying to process is accurate. Once I understand it fully I'll be able to weed through it but for now to say <insert name> is a great resource is very helpful.

Thanks again.
Lol, I don't take learning from someone, and passing on knowledge is plagerism.. saying something is your own, or passing it off as your own, is, but, repeating a common knowledge from the knowledgeable, that's just the spred of information....IMHO
 
#119 ·
Lol,

Lol, I don't take learning from someone, and passing on knowledge is plagerism.. saying something is your own, or passing it off as your own, is, but, repeating a common knowledge from the knowledgeable, that's just the spred of information....IMHO
I believe the source should be cited if you're taking the words from another source, especially a business who make their living on the expertise you're borrowing. I don't see the problem with giving credit where credit is due.
 
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