Got everything shipped yesterday and installed it tonight . Sag measurements and test ride still pending...

 

Ok sag measurement done for front. 20mm static sag, 30mm rider sag. Think that's OK. @DarkScout : any suggestions what's a good approach to set up the proper rebound damping on the rear shocks? Start in the middle and then try both ways to see differences? Any rule of thumb e.g . Bad roads higher damping, smooth roads lower or vice versa? Thanks

Update: Test ride completed and I'm still surprized about the improvement. I can't compare the Foxes to any other shocks, but I'm happy. Must admit that I bought them for the good looks as well. The front is perfect: no more diving when applying the front brakes, feels much safer when I go a little faster. All in all I consider it a very good investment.

 

Well I think I'm about done and so far very pleased with the update. Fine tuning rider sag in the front. I probably should have gone with the DS Sport to get a better adjustment for the rear but all went well and big difference!

Thanks again for this write up as it made things go real easy for someone who has never done this!

Note 1: Putting the fork caps back on was really easy, even by myself so those questioning this don't worry as it's not as hard as it may seem.

Note 2: Some had questions on supporting bike. What I did is I had a small skid and turned it over(upside down), added to eye bolts, placed rear tire on skid and used a rachet strap to secure over rear seat...see below.

 

No prob Mark! im really glad it helped you!!
And, your method of supporting the bike is genius!! Now ride the hell out of it now that it's turned up to 11!

 

@MarkK did you change the fork oil? If yes, what weight did you use?

 

@ScoutyD yes, I ended up using what DS recommended and went with the 20 weight. My shims ended up being 38mm long to get the 30mm rider sag...what a difference!

 

Looks like ATF..Smells like ATF..
Feels like ATF.. tastes like ATF..
Must be ATF.. dont step in it...

View attachment 43465

Cheech & Chong reference noted.

 

Dunno if this is where I should ask, but since a lot of folks have used this as the "how to, maybe someone will see this question: I'm looking at the Progressive Suspension springs. I know that the kit comes with a PVC spacer for setting preload. I'm assuming there's some sort of guideline for the length to cut the spacers to to achieve the desired setting. I have it in my head that I'd come up with a starting point based on someone else's experience, but I can't find that discussion to save me. If you fitted those springs, and remember the spacer length you used, please post up that length and your weight so I can reconstruct my starting point. Thanks!

 

My spacers were cut to the suggested length of 36mm, i.e. 1.4". I weigh 80kg, i.e. 180lb or 12.5 stone. They recommend not going shorter than that. I wouldn't want it any firmer, so I think this length would work even if you're a bit heavier than me. I think the idea is to add more washers to both sides if you need more length.

 

I too recommend going to the short side. As @Graham UK mentioned, you can add length if need be..

 

More likely that I'll want/need less; I'm 160# max, in my gear.

 

They don't recommend shortening the spacer beyond 36mm, but you can adjust the air gap above the oil, and you could also try leaving the oil as 10w instead of following their suggestion of changing it to 20w. At least one forum member kept the original 10w oil and seemed very satisfied with the results.

 

I concur with the oil sentiment..
I don't think any more than 15 would be needed. And 10 seems like it would suit that weight as well ..

 

"They" being Progressive? I wonder why they don't want to shorten it any more. Creating a gap in the assembly at full extension? Strength of the spacer? I put their springs in a bike one time, and it picked the front end up by at least a half inch. Didn't seem to adversely affect handling or ride on that machine, and this predated my familiarity with optimal sag settings, so I left it alone.

 

I wondered the same... its easy to add length (preload) if needed to, I can't see any detriment in doing so.
IMO.

 

Truth is, if I picked the front up a bit, it might be a positive, clearance-wise; I guess it'd slow the steering a bit, but probably not so much that you'd notice.

 

I don't know how many times the subject of auto trans fluid came up throughout the past 40 years on it being fork oil. Basically auto transmission fluid is a 10W ( measured thru a drip device to see what viscosity it is ) and so is most fork oil. When I worked the Japan region for Harley, they Japanese used a lot of non - Harley oils to cut costs and surprisingly they had hardly any repercussions using non HD lubricants. With them using bulk oil from really anywhere they could get it cheap, they also used auto trans fluid in for oil changes and claimed it was better than what HD sold them to use. When you think of it, auto trans fluid ( ATF ) has seal conditioners and is probably the cleanest most refined oil one can find. So I looked the other way when they did this because of the 250% import tax on everything American auto supplied stuff that comes into Japan. Including cars and bikes. Never once a problem. Many people I know who drive regular cars unlike Honda's that require a special power steering oil, use ATF and never a problem. So I began using it. I just did a service on my 74 Super Glide with 1800 miles on it and did it because of time, not mileage. Same damn thing as the BelRay stuff one would buy or same thing Harley hawks at the parts counter There was a post somewhere where a T111 Chief owner drilled/tapped drain holes on the outside of his front forks and did it that way instead of taking the damn bike halfway apart. He used a plastic or rubber washer when putting back in the drain screws and it looked like it was pure factory. Then all he did was drain the fluid, remove the caps and add the correct amount of oil.
By the way, Indian fork oil is probably 10W ATF to begin with and just rebottled. 20W is too strong and you won't get the dampening. So don't split hairs of arguing whether Indian oil for forks is 15 or 10W. Same same.
Thoughts?

 

Thoughts?

So would you recommend Indian's 10w with the Progressive Suspension fork springs?

 

Not sure.............I'm not supposed to comment on Scout threads anymore. Ever since I messed up and bought a 69 instead of a 60, I never heard the end of it so I sold the 69 and agreed to never comment about a Scout. The 60 crowd made me feel 2 inches tall. Worse mistake of my life I was told was to get a 69 instead of a 60. Now its the T111 2014 Chief I have.

 

It's just amazing how misleading and incorrect and a general lack of information about suspension and suspension setup can propagate through a forum, such as what's been talked about, more concerning is that members who don't know anything about suspension setups can read what's been implied and get wrong misleading information or worse start advising others on how to make improvements based on what they have been reading on here.

 

Thanks @DarkScout (genuinely)
If there has been anything that you see as incorrect, please feel free to correct..
I'd hate think I've been party to incorrect guidance. Please, set us straight.
Thanks!

 

@Hatt your thread on installing your suspension was excellent, I get emails and PM's refiring to this thread quite a lot.. and I also have referred other here as well, but reading about fork oils and talk of reverting back to 10wt fork oil and using non fork oil are some what concerning.

Firstly fork oil

In addition to providing a lubricating and cooling bath for the dampers and bushings of the fork and shock to function in, the suspension fluid is the medium that is used to provide dampening in a modern system.

Essentially, the oil is forced through an orifice (holes in the dampening rod or past a spring loaded shim to creating a resistive force to the action of the shocks. Aside from other changes that effect damping, the viscosity of the oil and how the viscosity changes as the oil heats up will be large factors in the system.

Raising the oil level increases the compression ratio in the front fork (air gap) and therefore changes the progressiveness of the spring forces. This has nothing to do with the damping (key point).

Changing the oil viscosity changes the damping. Both the compression and the rebound the thicker the oil the slower the fork moves the thinner the oil this speeds up the return. the OEM scout forks are an indication and the effects of a fork with incorrect valving and oil weights. The spring forces are sensitive to position in other words where it is in the travel while damping forces only care how fast the damper is moving.

Why am I needing to change my fork oil Weight from the OEM 10wt to 20wt in my scout

You need to replace the OEM fork oil, this is a must do, don't need to, but a requirement as the OEM forks oil is 10wt and as you are now installing stiffer springs with more force the rebound will be to fast so your oil weight also needs to be increased to 20Wt, as oil weight controls the rebound (how fast the forks returns to the normal position) due to the design of the dampening rod that has 8mm or 9mm holes placed at the lower portion of the rod and this is the part of the rod that controls the rebound on the scouts forks, and allows the oil to pass throw to control the speed of the rebound, hens slowing the rebound down. To some degree this is your forks valving a cheap and simple oil valve, (orifice) as the valving cant be changed unlike on some more advanced forks found on dirt bikes, oil viscosity 20wt is the only way to slow the rebound down.

Watch Dave Moss video's on suspension, before you start changing out you oil weights, without first knowing why you think you need to.

More imfo on the effects of too fast rebound here: How to Do Video's on suspension setup's

Fork oil are designed for just that, "motorcycle forks" NO other oil should ever be used what so ever in motorcycle forks and no suggestions should be made otherwise.

 

@Hatt your thread on installing your suspension was excellent, I get emails and PM's refiring to this thread quite a lot.. and I also have referred other here as well, but reading about fork oils and talk of reverting back to 10wt fork oil and using non fork oil are some what concerning.

Firstly fork oil

In addition to providing a lubricating and cooling bath for the dampers and bushings of the fork and shock to function in, the suspension fluid is the medium that is used to provide dampening in a modern system.

Essentially, the oil is forced through an orifice (holes in the dampening rod or past a spring loaded shim to creating a resistive force to the action of the shocks. Aside from other changes that effect damping, the viscosity of the oil and how the viscosity changes as the oil heats up will be large factors in the system.

Raising the oil level increases the compression ratio in the front fork (air gap) and therefore changes the progressiveness of the spring forces. This has nothing to do with the damping (key point).

Changing the oil viscosity changes the damping. Both the compression and the rebound the thicker the oil the slower the fork moves the thinner the oil this speeds up the return. the OEM scout forks are an indication and the effects of a fork with incorrect valving and oil weights. The spring forces are sensitive to position in other words where it is in the travel while damping forces only care how fast the damper is moving.

Why am I needing to change my fork oil Weight from the OEM 10wt to 20wt in my scout

You need to replace the OEM fork oil, this is a must do, don't need to, but a requirement as the OEM forks oil is 10wt and as you are now installing stiffer springs with more force the rebound will be to fast so your oil weight also needs to be increased to 20Wt, as oil weight controls the rebound (how fast the forks returns to the normal position) due to the design of the dampening rod that has 8mm or 9mm holes placed at the lower portion of the rod and this is the part of the rod that controls the rebound on the scouts forks, and allows the oil to pass throw to control the speed of the rebound, hens slowing the rebound down. To some degree this is your forks valving a cheap and simple oil valve, (orifice) as the valving cant be changed unlike on some more advanced forks found on dirt bikes, oil viscosity 20wt is the only way to slow the rebound down.

Watch Dave Moss video's on suspension, before you start changing out you oil weights, without first knowing why you think you need to.

More imfo on the effects of too fast rebound here: How to Do Video's on suspension setup's

Fork oil are designed for just that, "motorcycle forks" NO other oil should ever be used what so ever in motorcycle forks and no suggestions should be made otherwise.

That makes complete sense. Thank you for such clear and helpful input.

 

DarkScout, thanks, you really know your stuff.

 

@Hatt your thread on installing your suspension was excellent, I get emails and PM's refiring to this thread quite a lot.. and I also have referred other here as well, but reading about fork oils and talk of reverting back to 10wt fork oil and using non fork oil are some what concerning.

Firstly fork oil

In addition to providing a lubricating and cooling bath for the dampers and bushings of the fork and shock to function in, the suspension fluid is the medium that is used to provide dampening in a modern system.

Essentially, the oil is forced through an orifice (holes in the dampening rod or past a spring loaded shim to creating a resistive force to the action of the shocks. Aside from other changes that effect damping, the viscosity of the oil and how the viscosity changes as the oil heats up will be large factors in the system.

Raising the oil level increases the compression ratio in the front fork (air gap) and therefore changes the progressiveness of the spring forces. This has nothing to do with the damping (key point).

Changing the oil viscosity changes the damping. Both the compression and the rebound the thicker the oil the slower the fork moves the thinner the oil this speeds up the return. the OEM scout forks are an indication and the effects of a fork with incorrect valving and oil weights. The spring forces are sensitive to position in other words where it is in the travel while damping forces only care how fast the damper is moving.

Why am I needing to change my fork oil Weight from the OEM 10wt to 20wt in my scout

You need to replace the OEM fork oil, this is a must do, don't need to, but a requirement as the OEM forks oil is 10wt and as you are now installing stiffer springs with more force the rebound will be to fast so your oil weight also needs to be increased to 20Wt, as oil weight controls the rebound (how fast the forks returns to the normal position) due to the design of the dampening rod that has 8mm or 9mm holes placed at the lower portion of the rod and this is the part of the rod that controls the rebound on the scouts forks, and allows the oil to pass throw to control the speed of the rebound, hens slowing the rebound down. To some degree this is your forks valving a cheap and simple oil valve, (orifice) as the valving cant be changed unlike on some more advanced forks found on dirt bikes, oil viscosity 20wt is the only way to slow the rebound down.

Watch Dave Moss video's on suspension, before you start changing out you oil weights, without first knowing why you think you need to.

More imfo on the effects of too fast rebound here: How to Do Video's on suspension setup's

Fork oil are designed for just that, "motorcycle forks" NO other oil should ever be used what so ever in motorcycle forks and no suggestions should be made otherwise.

Thanks bud!
Having read your post , We are on same page, I disagree with nothing in it..
for clarification.
I'd like to make some points. I do not condone using ATF as fork oil..(this is why I mocked it's use in my OP) my point was that, as you accurately described what the fork oil does, is the same thing that ATF is designed for, it's compressed, and forced through orfices. It does not mean it's the same, it does not mean it's good, or ideal, but I do think This, is why it has been used by many many manufacturers as a fork oil.
that was my point. I don't condone it, it's a cheap out. But the fact does remain, it has been used as fork oil. right or wrong..that was all.
On the oil viscosity, I do not think the oils weights recommend by you are improper, nor should any one else... I think what is actually happening is the direct result in fork oils being different viscosities from brand to brand, even if ratings on both brands bottles say the same.
I should have clarified when ever I brought up switching.
For example,
You spec'd 15w for me.
But sometimes depending on surface, my fork is slow to react. I don't think it's because your recommendation was inaccurate I think it's because my brand of 15w was thicker than the brand you had in mind.
And so, I'm "searching" or "theorizing" for the actual viscosity you had in mind..
I take full responsibility for not having clarified that aspect behind my thoughts and recommendations.
And I do not deviate nor should anyone else from the knowledge of your post.
In short, my sentiments to folks are
1. Use actual fork oil!!
2. Keep in mind viscosity varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.
I don't think you'd disagree on those points, and again, we are on same page. I no doubt should have clarified my reasoning behind my thoughts.
Thanks for taking the time, and engaging in this thread and putting forth your much respected, and great knowledge on this subject. as I hope you know, your help has been priceless to many, including me.
Thanks again DS!
Cheers!

Previous Post edited for clarity.

 

Your 100% accurate, fork oils do very from manufacturer's in oil weights chemical properties and price.

When I was doing the testing and developing the DS Classic Scout Suspension I used 15wt at the start as time a testing progress I installed 20wt, as the rebound was still to fast for my liking for the scout.

I suggested 15wt in the early stages testing and that's why some have 15wt and others have 20wt.

 

What a guy you are!
To the general public.
Does Mr. Dark rest on his Laurels? Hell no! Does the Dark man keep on evolving, hell yes! Did Dark Scout have our backs even when he was down and out? Hell yes!
Does he consistently improve! Hell yes!
Did he hang his arse in places many wouldn't dare (like forums) hell yes!
Is there any reason to buy any other suspension service from anyone else? HELL NO!

 

Which is of course true. But if the orifices are unchanged, heavier oil results in more damping (due to resistance to flow) in either direction. So, I suppose it's a matter of choosing your balance?

 

The only things I'd add to Professor Hatt's excellent tutorial are:
1) You gotta remove the turn signals to pull the fork tubes
(BE CAREFUL, THAT PAINTED TANK IS RIGHT THERE)
2) The caliper is prone to leaping off the factory-provided perch when you move things side-to side
3) After you drop the fork tubes to allow access to the caps with a biga** socket, you might wanna loosen both caps before you pull either one. I found it useful to have leverage from the opposite side.

Oh, one other thing: I found a rough starting point for the amount of oil to give the 160mm air gap to be ≈275cc. Left very little to suck out.

 

I don't think it really matters that much, but there's something I dont get:

Shouldn't the spring go with the more-coil zone in the bottom like the oem setup? The spring will work the same but you will have more weight close to the road and also the spring will have slightly less weight over itself (kind of slightly less preload).

 

Weight close to the road is typically avoided.
Suspension engineers go through great length to reduce suspension weight.
An upside down fork is an example of this..

 

Sorry, I just wandered too why changing orientation or what orientation should be the correct one, I recognice I don't know the answer, that's why I asked. Thanks anyway.

 

No biggie.. I realize my response may have come off harshly.. my apologies.
But, to try to answer..
The weight that would be introduced on top, would be so miniscule in scale, it would be irrelevant in the handling of the bike.. but when it comes to springs and suspension,, every little bit counts...it has more of and impact there.
I've used this analogy..
Take a hammer hold it normal, shake it as fast as possible.. take note of the effort.. then turn hammer around, and do the same.. take note of how much less effort.. the Second scenario is what we try to mimic with suspensions..
Cheers

 

Short report; hopefully this is a reasonable place to put it so that folks find it.

I installed Progressive Suspension springs last week. No knock on Dark Scout or other sources, but I had easy access to PS, and had good experiences with them on other bikes in the past. In addition, I went with 15W oil because, well...I'm a lightweight. 130# in my skivvies, <160 in riding gear. I also went with the recommended 36mm preload spacers. Call me lazy, but I haven't confirmed sag yet. I just went out and rode the thing.

Just. Wow. Not only is the ride more comfortable, but I don't have to worry about the front end anymore entering turns or on choppy pavement. Great stuff.

HTH.

 

Love to hear your opinion after some miles. I'm about 135-140 without gear, and haven't been able to find spring rates for the PS springs, so can't compare them to anything without buying and installing.