Once you ride Indian, always an Indian....and this is coming from an Indian!
Challenger Cams Available Soon?
Just saw this posted by Lloydz on YouTube. I know we heard this about a year ago that Lloydz Challenger cams are “coming soon.” This is the latest update of “soon,” which is 2-3 months. We’ll see…
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As much as I agree it's only kinda true. To many people on this site going back to HD.Once you ride Indian, always an Indian....and this is coming from an Indian!
She joined 3 days ago and one post. I do hope she comes back, I’ve met her once and she is a very nice person from my experience. And she is very busy with the dealership.
If she is smart, she won't be back. And I don't mean that in a bad way at all.
As a company you will never win internet forum battles, just get dragged in the mud.
For example, a few bad posts about a company's product can go 2 ways.
1. Company shows up on the forum defending themselves. More anti-company posters join in the mudslinging, defenders arrive. Forum thread evolves into 20 pages of [email protected]#t fest. Worse attention is gained for such company.
2. Company ignore bad posts. The 5 -10 bad posts disappear into oblivion into the forum archives.
Sorry for my ignorance. How much differenced are these Lloyds Cams from the performance Cams that Indian sells?
Sorry for my ignorance. How much differenced are these Lloyds Cams from the performance Cams that Indian sells?
Supposed to be big difference.
I don't know how much of a difference the Lloyd's really will make. I doubt you're feel much of a difference between the Lloyd's and the Indian cams and the flash. I have the complete Indian Stage II on my Pursuit. It idles great, runs great through all throttle positions and have not thrown any codes. And it's available right now. Even better, Indian will new void warranty or erase your flash during service or repairs.Sorry for my ignorance. How much differences are these Lloyd's Cams from the performance Cams that Indian sells?
I don't know how much of a difference the Lloyd's really will make. I doubt you're feel much of a difference between the Lloyd's and the Indian cams and the flash. I have the complete Indian Stage II on my Pursuit. It idles great, runs great through all throttle positions and have not thrown any codes. And it's available right now. Even better, Indian will new void warranty or erase your flash during service or repairs.
The are claiming 137 HP and 130 lbs of torque.
To prove the big difference they should have comparisons with Stock Vs. Lloyds Cams and tune and Indian Cams and tune vs Lloyds Cams & tune.
To prove the big difference they should have comparisons with Stock Vs. Lloyds Cams and tune and Indian Cams and tune vs Lloyds Cams & tune.
Those files are out there, and even on this forum. Just have to do a search for them. When the factory Challenger cams first came out, there was a huge disappointment on the performance gain. Actually, much less than you would get on stage 2 on the thunderstroke engines.
The stock bike is fast enough. But everyone wants the Big [email protected]$k bragging rights.
I’ve seen a Lloyds tuned stage one Challenger beat an Indian cam and flash stage two bike. If the Lloyd’s cam is not significantly better it might not be worth it. I’m also concerned about longevity especially if the warranty might be void. It might some time and first buying testers to see how it works out.
While I do like most of Lloyds products I certainly would not be the first one on the block to order the new cams. The valve spring issues with the early 585s on the 111 bikes was a hard learned lesson for some. @RACNRAY did some great work on profiling a number of cams including Lloyds. The 585s come very close to valve spring coil bind. Lloyds excuse about the valve spring breakage in my opinion was pretty poor. He blamed the valve springs stating that stock springs were breaking with stock cams. I have heard of a couple of issues like that but nothing compared to what was happening with the 585s. Now after the fact Lloyds now recommends doing the high lift springs. The old Andrews 575 cams had a very similar profile to the Lloyds 585 but a lower lift that the stock valve springs could safely handle. I think Lloyd pushed for better numbers and the result was causing the valve springs to be the weak link.I’ve seen a Lloyds tuned stage one Challenger beat an Indian cam and flash stage two bike. If the Lloyd’s cam is not significantly better it might not be worth it. I’m also concerned about longevity especially if the warranty might be void. It might some time and first buying testers to see how it works out.
Bigger dyno numbers might sell more cams as long as you don't sacrifice reliability. Do your homework and choose wisely. Dean
TC Champ had the Lloydz Cams in his Challenger and I believe he put a ton of miles on his bike. He was one of the lucky 4 or 5 bikes that got these cams Last year.
Hopefully he chimes in here. I know he lives here in Kansas City but I haven’t had the pleasure to meet him. I’ll have to ask my buddy that works at our local dealership.
My understanding on the Indian stage 2 cams you are going to add about 7hp. Our bikes are about 105hp to the tire. Your stage 2 bike with Indian cams will be about 112hp is my understanding.
The Stage 2 with Łloydz cams, tune and a good 2 into 1 header will be about 135-137hp to the tire. I estimate the cost to be about $5k.
I have the RVS tune and the 2 into 1 ($2k) and I guesstimate I should’ve about 118hp. My math is 105 stock to the wheel, 8hp for the 2 into 1 Sawicki, and 5hp for the RVS tune and a K&N filter.
The new new limiter with the RVS tune is at 150mph. I had her to 140 a week ago but I ran out of clear real estate. Smooth as ice at that speed too!
I’m anxious to get the Lloydz cams myself. However, I’m interested in what TC Champ has to say about his experience first.
Hopefully he chimes in here. I know he lives here in Kansas City but I haven’t had the pleasure to meet him. I’ll have to ask my buddy that works at our local dealership.
My understanding on the Indian stage 2 cams you are going to add about 7hp. Our bikes are about 105hp to the tire. Your stage 2 bike with Indian cams will be about 112hp is my understanding.
The Stage 2 with Łloydz cams, tune and a good 2 into 1 header will be about 135-137hp to the tire. I estimate the cost to be about $5k.
I have the RVS tune and the 2 into 1 ($2k) and I guesstimate I should’ve about 118hp. My math is 105 stock to the wheel, 8hp for the 2 into 1 Sawicki, and 5hp for the RVS tune and a K&N filter.
The new new limiter with the RVS tune is at 150mph. I had her to 140 a week ago but I ran out of clear real estate. Smooth as ice at that speed too!
I’m anxious to get the Lloydz cams myself. However, I’m interested in what TC Champ has to say about his experience first.
I took a chance on having Charlotte put one of their 126 kits in my SF and so far I’m very pleased. I’ve put on over 3000 miles since the build and no issues yet. I don’t ride it super hard but with all the low rpm torque you really don’t need to. I’ll give the cams some time and let the dust settle before I consider adding them to my bike. With the Lloyds tune I have in it now it runs pretty darn good.While I do like most of Lloyds products I certainly would not be the first one on the block to order the new cams. The valve spring issues with the early 585s on the 111 bikes was a hard learned lesson for some. @RACNRAY did some great work on profiling a number of cams including Lloyds. The 585s come very close to valve spring coil bind. Lloyds excuse about the valve spring breakage in my opinion was pretty poor. He blamed the valve springs stating that stock springs were breaking with stock cams. I have heard of a couple of issues like that but nothing compared to what was happening with the 585s. Now after the fact Lloyds now recommends doing the high lift springs. The old Andrews 575 cams had a very similar profile to the Lloyds 585 but a lower lift that the stock valve springs could safely handle. I think Lloyd pushed for better numbers and the result was causing the valve springs to be the weak link.
Bigger dyno numbers might sell more cams as long as you don't sacrifice reliability. Do your homework and choose wisely. Dean
I don't know if I can make this claim or not, but other than Lloyd or Tim themselves, I probably have put on more miles on his cams than anyone. The graph Baron58 posted was off of my bike tuned over a year ago at Charlotte on their dyno. Not bragging if that's how I'm coming off, just stating the facts. I'll try an answer all the questions I've seen in a few of the previous posts. I believe in being thorough and transparent, so here it goes:
All that being said, seat of the pants, you can be satisfied with Stage 2 cams and never go Lloydz cams. Would I recommend it? If cams was the ONLY upgrade, probably not. If cams, new/better exhaust was in your future? Yes. Include a BBK? Absolutely! In the end, it depends on how you ride. Stage2 Indian cams can easily give you the trq increases that Lloydz cam can, it was designed for more trq before hp. However, it will never give you the HP without doing something else very radical. But look at that trq curve... it's flat. Boring. It pulls like a jet engine, constant all the way to 5200 where the hp kicks, and THAT keeps going beyond what a 2020 Challenger's tach will even read. I had to use the tach on the RC if I was going to eat up the kinda HP! A good rider on a Stage 2 bike could very well beat an identical bike with Lloydz cams. Roll-on the power side by side while rolling, Lloydz cams will pull on the Stage2 every time. Ask me how I know.
I was at St. Paul when Lloyd announced the release of the 3 different levels of cams, and in short to answer... yes. The reason they originally required you to have your bike in Charlotte is most likely due to them not having enough data for tunes in correspondence to the cams and different setups. Every bike they installed was dyno tuned to gain said information for future RTC reciprocity. Their goal, from what I understand, is no different than telling them what specific mods you have on your motor, and they send a corresponding tune.Will I be able to buy these and install myself or have my shop install along with your pipe and tune?
You're not wrong. I imagine she will be back here and there. People affiliate Lloyd'z Garage as this big, mega multi-million dollar industrial machine handed to them on a silver platter just because they have the backing, knowledge, race team, etc etc. Lloyd's just been in the game for a long time, over 2 decades. People retire with less, and he... along with Amanda and their whole team, is just getting started. You meet any of them, and realize everything they have invested, and even sacrificed, into making customers happy in providing what they will only accept as the best products on the market, it's inspiring. They didn't come from Honda or H-D or any other brand. Lloyd has been P.V.I. their whole career. They live it. So I can see why the response may have come across a bit emotional. But like you're saying, nobody really cares, they just want what they want regardless if there's a human being behind it all or not.If she is smart, she won't be back. And I don't mean that in a bad way at all.
As a company you will never win internet forum battles, just get dragged in the mud.
For example, a few bad posts about a company's product can go 2 ways.
1. Company shows up on the forum defending themselves. More anti-company posters join in the mudslinging, defenders arrive. Forum thread evolves into 20 pages of [email protected]#t fest. Worse attention is gained for such company.
2. Company ignore bad posts. The 5 -10 bad posts disappear into oblivion into the forum archives.
You'll never see a stock bike over 110whp, and I have never seen a Stage2 (Indian cams) break 130whp, so go with that. This isn't just a tune with 1-2whp unnoticeable differences between tunes, it's ~30whp over stock (with correct exhaust), and 9-15whp over Stage 2 Indian cams (with correct exhaust).To prove the big difference they should have comparisons with Stock Vs. Lloyds Cams and tune and Indian Cams and tune vs Lloyds Cams & tune.
All that being said, seat of the pants, you can be satisfied with Stage 2 cams and never go Lloydz cams. Would I recommend it? If cams was the ONLY upgrade, probably not. If cams, new/better exhaust was in your future? Yes. Include a BBK? Absolutely! In the end, it depends on how you ride. Stage2 Indian cams can easily give you the trq increases that Lloydz cam can, it was designed for more trq before hp. However, it will never give you the HP without doing something else very radical. But look at that trq curve... it's flat. Boring. It pulls like a jet engine, constant all the way to 5200 where the hp kicks, and THAT keeps going beyond what a 2020 Challenger's tach will even read. I had to use the tach on the RC if I was going to eat up the kinda HP! A good rider on a Stage 2 bike could very well beat an identical bike with Lloydz cams. Roll-on the power side by side while rolling, Lloydz cams will pull on the Stage2 every time. Ask me how I know.
100% This is why they have taken so long IMO. Ensuring QC, reliable/efficient tunes, supplier continuity, all plays into these decisions. You for sure would not be the first, so rest assured, reliabiitty was not sacrificed. I never hesitated to take my bike anywhere after the cams were installed. I'm probably more excited to get it done than anyone else with the next build cause I know what I'm missing out on!While I do like most of Lloyds products I certainly would not be the first one on the block to order the new cams.
Bigger dyno numbers might sell more cams as long as you don't sacrifice reliability. Do your homework and choose wisely. Dean
Hey ya’ll I’m so sorry I’ve been traveling down south for bike week
the challenger cams will be available to the public from Lloyd’z motor workz just as chieftain cams are. With that said chieftain cams are much easier to install 🤣. You will need to drop the motor so clearly recommend going to an RTC location. We would love to meet as many of you as possible, but totally get that’s not feasible lol. Also big news is that these will have the compression release INTACT! Wahooo lol. There will be 3 different profiles as well
the challenger cams will be available to the public from Lloyd’z motor workz just as chieftain cams are. With that said chieftain cams are much easier to install 🤣. You will need to drop the motor so clearly recommend going to an RTC location. We would love to meet as many of you as possible, but totally get that’s not feasible lol. Also big news is that these will have the compression release INTACT! Wahooo lol. There will be 3 different profiles as well 
Any rough idea how many hours of labor are required for the install?
just curious if you know the answer to this since you seem pretty knowledgeable… do you think there’s much difference in performance between different quality 2-1 exhausts based on how they’re engineered? i’ve been waiting since june on a full length lloydz 2-1 because i think it looks great, trust that it will make good power, and the price is right…but at this point i’m leaning towards cancelling the preorder and just getting a cmp. do you think there would be any difference in performance between these pipes?I don't know if I can make this claim or not, but other than Lloyd or Tim themselves, I probably have put on more miles on his cams than anyone. The graph Baron58 posted was off of my bike tuned over a year ago at Charlotte on their dyno. Not bragging if that's how I'm coming off, just stating the facts. I'll try an answer all the questions I've seen in a few of the previous posts. I believe in being thorough and transparent, so here it goes:
I was at St. Paul when Lloyd announced the release of the 3 different levels of cams, and in short to answer... yes. The reason they originally required you to have your bike in Charlotte is most likely due to them not having enough data for tunes in correspondence to the cams and different setups. Every bike they installed was dyno tuned to gain said information for future RTC reciprocity. Their goal, from what I understand, is no different than telling them what specific mods you have on your motor, and they send a corresponding tune.
You're not wrong. I imagine she will be back here and there. People affiliate Lloyd'z Garage as this big, mega multi-million dollar industrial machine handed to them on a silver platter just because they have the backing, knowledge, race team, etc etc. Lloyd's just been in the game for a long time, over 2 decades. People retire with less, and he... along with Amanda and their whole team, is just getting started. You meet any of them, and realize everything they have invested, and even sacrificed, into making customers happy in providing what they will only accept as the best products on the market, it's inspiring. They didn't come from Honda or H-D or any other brand. Lloyd has been P.V.I. their whole career. They live it. So I can see why the response may have come across a bit emotional. But like you're saying, nobody really cares, they just want what they want regardless if there's a human being behind it all or not.
You'll never see a stock bike over 110whp, and I have never seen a Stage2 (Indian cams) break 130whp, so go with that. This isn't just a tune with 1-2whp unnoticeable differences between tunes, it's ~30whp over stock (with correct exhaust), and 9-15whp over Stage 2 Indian cams (with correct exhaust).
All that being said, seat of the pants, you can be satisfied with Stage 2 cams and never go Lloydz cams. Would I recommend it? If cams was the ONLY upgrade, probably not. If cams, new/better exhaust was in your future? Yes. Include a BBK? Absolutely! In the end, it depends on how you ride. Stage2 Indian cams can easily give you the trq increases that Lloydz cam can, it was designed for more trq before hp. However, it will never give you the HP without doing something else very radical. But look at that trq curve... it's flat. Boring. It pulls like a jet engine, constant all the way to 5200 where the hp kicks, and THAT keeps going beyond what a 2020 Challenger's tach will even read. I had to use the tach on the RC if I was going to eat up the kinda HP! A good rider on a Stage 2 bike could very well beat an identical bike with Lloydz cams. Roll-on the power side by side while rolling, Lloydz cams will pull on the Stage2 every time. Ask me how I know.
100% This is why they have taken so long IMO. Ensuring QC, reliable/efficient tunes, supplier continuity, all plays into these decisions. You for sure would not be the first, so rest assured, reliabiitty was not sacrificed. I never hesitated to take my bike anywhere after the cams were installed. I'm probably more excited to get it done than anyone else with the next build cause I know what I'm missing out on!
Well I know for a fact Lloyd'z branded Sawicki was designed with his cams in mind. When I got my cams done, they were already talking about what kind of exhaust could improve the performance of his cams. If I remember right, they dynoed one months after with his pipe at 133wtrq and 135whp. The best of all worlds when you're splitting hp to hp. I've seen other systems have 10 less whp than mine, and then you're right back into Stage2 Indian cams territory. Exhaust makes a big difference!just curious if you know the answer to this since you seem pretty knowledgeable… do you think there’s much difference in performance between different quality 2-1 exhausts based on how they’re engineered? i’ve been waiting since june on a full length lloydz 2-1 because i think it looks great, trust that it will make good power, and the price is right…but at this point i’m leaning towards cancelling the preorder and just getting a cmp. do you think there would be any difference in performance between these pipes?
I know a guy who's run CMP in every Challenger he's built, and he's not lacking in performance at all. Never ran a dyno, and never ran with Lloyd'z cams on a CMP, idk if anyone has, but Mike over at CMP knows what he's doing. My next build is with a CMP pipe because he custom made it for me, and I'll just put it this way; he's been building performance oriented pipes for years, so he knows a thing or 2. His fit and finish, along with bag supports, is the best in the business as far as quality, cleanliness, no bulky brackets exposed. My last 2-1 pipe was hand made, but the bag brackets were a horrible experience. I ended up buying CMP brackets for that bike anyway. CMP just gives you quality in the WHOLE package, not just the pipe.
Hey guys Sawicki has told me recently they are doing production on full length exhaust this month.I want them to send pic of this exhaust on their Challenger.They said they would last week but havent as of yetWell I know for a fact Lloyd'z branded Sawicki was designed with his cams in mind. When I got my cams done, they were already talking about what kind of exhaust could improve the performance of his cams. If I remember right, they dynoed one months after with his pipe at 133wtrq and 135whp. The best of all worlds when you're splitting hp to hp. I've seen other systems have 10 less whp than mine, and then you're right back into Stage2 Indian cams territory. Exhaust makes a big difference!
I know a guy who's run CMP in every Challenger he's built, and he's not lacking in performance at all. Never ran a dyno, and never ran with Lloyd'z cams on a CMP, idk if anyone has, but Mike over at CMP knows what he's doing. My next build is with a CMP pipe because he custom made it for me, and I'll just put it this way; he's been building performance oriented pipes for years, so he knows a thing or 2. His fit and finish, along with bag supports, is the best in the business as far as quality, cleanliness, no bulky brackets exposed. My last 2-1 pipe was hand made, but the bag brackets were a horrible experience. I ended up buying CMP brackets for that bike anyway. CMP just gives you quality in the WHOLE package, not just the pipe.
decided to go with CMP but will be curious to see those pictures!Hey guys Sawicki has told me recently they are doing production on full length exhaust this month.I want them to send pic of this exhaust on their Challenger.They said they would last week but havent as of yet
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