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Discussion Starter #1
Silly question perhaps. I am considering getting PV3 for my Springfield DH (TS116 with stage 2 and Indian flash).

The bike's brand new and I don't want to damage anything that won't be covered by the warranty.

My understanding is that OEM tunes run lean for various reasons, so there isn't anything super crazy going on with a custom tune.
 

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Buy your tuner from a place like Fuel Moto tell them your set up and they will load a canned tune for you. The only true way to dial it in is to have a good dyno guy or gal do it.
 

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Technically, any modification could damage your bike. A custom tune should not damage anything, and if you do have a warranty repair, the company would have to prove that your modification caused the failure. For example, I had my head unit replaced under warranty, which is in no way affected by my PVCX. Also, if your dealer is "cool", they generally won't report stuff like that to Polaris when they submit warranty paperwork.
 

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If an amatuer (pro wannabe) "tunes" your engine, damage is very well likely to happen:

Overly lean mix can melt pistons.
Pre-Ignition can break pistons ...
A mix of wrong fueling and timing can burn valve seals which makes valves stick stuck break as well ...
Depending on severity of being off the effects can materialize soon(er) or late(er).

Its not the device itself which potentially breaks your engine ... its the user/device "operator" who allows for wrong settings (and the degrees of freedom to screw up are plenty!).

The general rule of thumb is: the biggest power gains are in close proximity to "unsafe" settings. So "semi pros" are very often operating on thin ice here just to produce the best numbers ... not very sustainable. LOL
Then on the other hand: the factory tunes leave (often not always) a lot of potential untapped just to comply to emission thresholds.

Sent from my SM-N976Q using Tapatalk
 

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Fuelmoto is the place to go! My post from the 'School Me On Tunes' thread, cut and paste:

In layman’s terms all or indeed most engines are modulated and can find themselves ending up in differing climates be it in the cold weather of Alaska or the heat of Saudi Arabia. As a result safety margins are built into the fueling of the engines to ensure they operate safely within the varying environments they may find themselves being operated in and to ensure they meet all countries emission legislation.
These inbuilt safety margins can be eaten into safely taking your own environmental conditions into account to give you better performance and sometimes economy whilst still maintaining safety margins.

With regards to prices and suppliers it can vary massively. It is best to shop around and acting upon recommendations can be a good thing. My personal view and that is all it is, personal, is that there is only one way to tune a vehicle and that is by buying dyno time and getting your bike tuned professionally. There are many ‘canned generic’ maps doing the rounds and you can get your bike tuned over the internet by having the tunes sent to you. The choice is yours and yours alone which way you go.

With regards to warranty only the dealership you use can answer that question. My own dealership has it’s own dyno and will tune your bike at a cost without warranty compromise so I was told.

As a footnote and after a great deal of further research I went with Fuelmoto in the end and it was my first foray into remote tuning, I have no regrets or qualms about recommending their service.
 

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Give Marcus a call. He sells a tuner that (as he says) delivers more fuel only when you need it. It's something like the Cobra Power Pro that samples real time.

The Tier One tuner that you refer to only adds fuel based on crankshaft acceleration. The biggest issue with the stock Indian tune is the ignition timing profile and throttle sensitivity which the Tie One does nothing about. The Tier One and Cobra were good back when we had "locked" ECU units and could not chnage things. But now with the PV3 and older PVCX we can adjust things "correctly"
 

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Silly question perhaps. I am considering getting PV3 for my Springfield DH (TS116 with stage 2 and Indian flash).

The bike's brand new and I don't want to damage anything that won't be covered by the warranty.

My understanding is that OEM tunes run lean for various reasons, so there isn't anything super crazy going on with a custom tune.

If you get Tunes from Dynojet, Fuel Motto, CraigB, and other reputable tuners no damage will occur. The stock Indian tune is over-rich in many areas. The PV3 tunes address overly aggressive ignition timing at low to mid power settings which results in detonation and pinging, better fly by wire throttle adjustment, also the better tune will minimize misfires which trigger engine codes.

In fact guys who have custom PV3/PVCX tunes have much few engine codes due to the better setup of the fuel/air/spark delivery.
 

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The Tier One tuner that you refer to only adds fuel based on crankshaft acceleration. The biggest issue with the stock Indian tune is the ignition timing profile and throttle sensitivity which the Tie One does nothing about. The Tier One and Cobra were good back when we had "locked" ECU units and could not chnage things. But now with the PV3 and older PVCX we can adjust things "correctly"
Thank you very much for the clarification.

So I assume this works in concert with the factory tune (regarding timing, etc.)?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The stock Indian tune is over-rich in many areas. The PV3 tunes address overly aggressive ignition timing at low to mid power settings which results in detonation and pinging, better fly by wire throttle adjustment, also the better tune will minimize misfires which trigger engine codes.
That's surprising (I am not an expert). My non-expert impression was that the OEM programming was very lean to hit EPA emission and mileage requirements. Otherwise how would an aftermarket tune give you more torque or HP?
 

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It's just a risk you take tuning anything with a warranty. Most likely it won't hurt a thing but there's always a risk. And it's usually up to the dealers discrepancy as to it being an issue. Most won't care.
 

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That's surprising (I am not an expert). My non-expert impression was that the OEM programming was very lean to hit EPA emission and mileage requirements. Otherwise how would an aftermarket tune give you more torque or HP?
The tune isn't really good for much power in all honesty. Oy really "needed" when something like a cam change was done. Yes the tune is rich in the upper room range and actually exhaust and pipes help it to achieve a better afr.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
The tune isn't really good for much power in all honesty. Oy really "needed" when something like a cam change was done. Yes the tune is rich in the upper room range and actually exhaust and pipes help it to achieve a better afr.
I am getting stage 2 done which includes performance intake / exhaust, new cam, new throttle body, etc. It includes the Indian stage-2 flash but interwebs claim that fuelmoto etc. are much better. There's no dyno chart anywhere and I take internet claims with a grain of salt, esp. if it's an area I know nothing about.
 

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That's surprising (I am not an expert). My non-expert impression was that the OEM programming was very lean to hit EPA emission and mileage requirements. Otherwise how would an aftermarket tune give you more torque or HP?


The "factory lean" tune is a little bit of internet mis-information. Yes it is true especially on water cooled bikes the tunes are indeed lean. On the 111/116 bikes the AF ratio is set to 14.7.1 on closed loop mode which is around idle to 3500 rpm and light to moderate loads, this is a lean mixture, but at higher power settings the AF ratios are too lean robbing power. Also the ignition timing profiles are too advanced at low poer settings and too retarded at high power settings.

Also keep in mind the aftermarket tunes from Fuel Motto, Dynojet and craigB don't increase torque or HP much at all. But rideability and response is improved. On a stock 111 HP is improved by 3 HP and torque by 7 lbs


Also on stock engines exhaust and intake do nothing to increase performance. As for the exhaust, the best power numbers come from the stock exhaust, no one beats it period. Lloyd Greer of Lloydz performance states this and dyno charts on Fuel Motto's website show the same thing. The air intake on the stock bikes is pretty optimized. You might see 2 to 4 HP on the top end at 5400 RPM, so if you drag race wide open it makes a difference.

To increase "real" performance on a 111/116, you need cams and bore. Intake and exhaust are optimized by ":real" engineering teams that use flow modeling and measurements. Most aftermarket exhaust guys simply a great craftsman's that make pretty nice sounding pipes.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
The "factory lean" tune is a little bit of internet mis-information. Yes it is true especially on water cooled bikes the tunes are indeed lean. On the 111/116 bikes the AF ratio is set to 14.7.1 on closed loop mode which is around idle to 3500 rpm and light to moderate loads, this is a lean mixture, but at higher power settings the AF ratios are too lean robbing power. Also the ignition timing profiles are too advanced at low poer settings and too retarded at high power settings.

Also keep in mind the aftermarket tunes from Fuel Motto, Dynojet and craigB don't increase torque or HP much at all. But rideability and response is improved. On a stock 111 HP is improved by 3 HP and torque by 7 lbs
Is that any good reading material somewhere for noobs like me to learn more?

I haven't found before-and-after dynocharts for TS116 (esp with stage 2), so it's really hard to understand the claim.
 

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Silly question perhaps. I am considering getting PV3 for my Springfield DH (TS116 with stage 2 and Indian flash).

The bike's brand new and I don't want to damage anything that won't be covered by the warranty.

My understanding is that OEM tunes run lean for various reasons, so there isn't anything super crazy going on with a custom tune.
I recommend the PV3 from Fuel Moto. I see no way possible for it to harm your engine.

I have a 2015 Vintage, 111 stage 2, PV3 from Fuel Moto. Stage 2 was done this past summer when the PV3 was added. Addition of the PV3 resulted in smoother running/transition when throttle is applied. The Fuel Moto/CraigB canned tune got rid of the 111 quirks and made for an overall better running engine. I and very pleased with the PV3 & Fuel Moto.

Fuel Moto.... I had a couple of questions regarding loading the tunes into my bike and the Fuel Moto reps were very helpful, great customer service. Bike is happy, I am happy.
 

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Is that any good reading material somewhere for noobs like me to learn more?

I haven't found before-and-after dynocharts for TS116 (esp with stage 2), so it's really hard to understand the claim.
I wouldn't be too concerned with Hp/Tq numbers. The PV3 isn't going to turn your Springfield into a rocket ship, nor will any other tuner that I'm aware of. What the PV3 does, is slightly modify air/fuel and timing therefore making the engine more efficient. Baron58 said it well in his post #14.
 

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The best part of the custom programs is the ability to change throttle sensitivity on the drive by wire bikes. The bad part is, there is a computer. Where you going to find a replacement in 100 years when someone wants to restore it. Can you imagine someone trying to restore a 1901 if it had a computer.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks all.
I am a total noob, this helped a lot. Still a noob, but a slightly less ignorant one.
 

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Is that any good reading material somewhere for noobs like me to learn more?

I haven't found before-and-after dynocharts for TS116 (esp with stage 2), so it's really hard to understand the claim.
There's a wealth of information on @CraigB1960's blog ...

My Indian Roadmaster

... though some of it is a bit over my head. Good stuff though ... :)
 
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