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thank you!!!!
...YOU ARE HEARING A PREDETIONATION ...
Typically, it's either pre-ignition or detonation ...In this case, if you mean detonation, I agree with you: that many folks are confusing detonation with the mechanical clatter that other 111's suffer from. If so, it can be tuned out, and should be before serious engine damage occurs.
Respects, Tom - AMS www.amsmotomachine.com
 

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Typically, it's either pre-ignition or detonation ...In this case, if you mean detonation, I agree with you: that many folks are confusing detonation with the mechanical clatter that other 111's suffer from. If so, it can be tuned out, and should be before serious engine damage occurs.
Respects, Tom - AMS www.amsmotomachine.com
You are correct in your statement, some are confusing detonation and mechanical noise, mine is mechanical noise ( trust me I know the difference after 45 years as a GM auto technician) Love my bike but hate this noise. It made the clacking since day one and it now has gotten progressively worse to the point that I hear it from first under load (not at idle or no load condition) until about 3500-4000 RPM
 

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what
You are correct in your statement, some are confusing detonation and mechanical noise, mine is mechanical noise ( trust me I know the difference after 45 years as a GM auto technician) Love my bike but hate this noise. It made the clacking since day one and it now has gotten progressively worse to the point that I hear it from first under load (not at idle or no load condition) until about 3500-4000 RPM
when I use the term "clackers" I'm referring to those with internal mechanical noise. I've also identified two noises, even though they are present under similar operating conditions. The most common noise, in my professional opinion, sounds like piston slap at bottom dead center reversal. If so, the cause is too much piston skirt to cylinder clearance, most likely due to poor quality control during either cylinder boring and / or the Nikasil plating process. Further tolerance "stack" from an incompatible piston skirt thermal expansion rate, could also make a marginal clearance become noisy under certain operating conditions.
Often when presented with a "mystery" noise in an engine, diagnosing it begins with determining the most likely places to look. Manufacturing experience & approaching the problem from an opposite point of view: such as "How could we manufacturer our engines so all of them clack?" will yield faster results. Taking this approach, here is one way to make a "clacker" :
When the cylinders are bored and prepped for Nikasil plating, they must be clamped between "torque plates", which are thick steel (or sometimes aluminum) plates that simulate the cylinder contact areas of the head and the crankcase. Their purpose is to replicate the distortion of the cylinder that occurs when the head stud/bolts are torque during engine assembly. Typically, when the engine is assembled, and the head/cylinder fasteners are torqued, the cylinder will distort, inwards as much as 0.008", at each head stud/bolt location both at the top and near the bottom of the cylinder. At the bottom, where the cylinder is thin ( the spigot area) the distortion will often create a secondary ripple or corrugated geometry around the bore. When a "raw" unbored cylinder is clamped between TQ plates, this distortion forms inward protruding lobes / corrugated "high spots". The cylinder is then bored, under this condition, removing the high spots and leaving a near perfect cylindrical shape (thermal expansion from the cutting forces, within the cylinder's uneven cross-section areas prevent a perfect cylinder shape), which is then honed or fine-bored to size, within tight tolerances ( typically +/-.0002"). When the cylinder is released from the TQ plates it reverts back to its unloaded shape, so the bored cylinder will now actually have reversed lobe/corrugated "low spots" - it will not "round" out and become cylindrical again until it is installed and torques in position when assembled. This is why it is futile for a tech to mic a cylinder on the bench without first clamping it in the appropriate torque plates. In my shop, we have found that the lower TQ plate's thickness & its clearance on the cyl's spigot has a huge effect on the final geometry and piston clearance at bottom-dead-center, and there fore engine noise. We also have found that we get improved cylinder geometry, faster ring break-in, less gas psi losses, more power if we also install a Multi-Layer-Steel head gasket between the cylinder and upper TQ plates while boring and honing the cyl.There is one more issue or concern when placing cyl's in TQ plates for boring/sizing: proper cyl indexing. Since the distortion/lobing is greater at the location of the 4 head studs/bolts, its important that the cylinder be "Clocked" so those higher clamp loads align with the location of the head studs when assembled. For small job/manufacturing shops like mine, this is not a problem as we use head stud/bolts very similar to those actually used on the engine, passing thru the cylinder's same index (clock) locations, to clamp and load them. Trouble can occur under high production manufacturing, which typically used faster hydraulic or pneumatic means of loading the TQ plates. If a cylinder is placed in the TQ plate fixture slightly off index, the greater portion of the lobed material will be bored out / removed in 4 diametrically opposed areas; 2 of which will be more closely aligned with the piston skirt's max eliptacal (cam) diameter when the cyl is installed on the engine. Problem is, when it's installed, it will be indexed properly, and the loading will distort or "round out" the are next to that when bored, so the cylinder, as assembled on the engine will not be round, instead two areas in nearer alignment within the two piston skirts will have excess clearance - allowing the piston to "slap" during reversal at BDC. Because the clearance changes as the piston and cylinder expands at separate thermal rates and loads, the noise may only be present during a range of rpm, temps, or loads. Because the random loading of an "off-index" cylinder, and even the randomness of the amount of "off-index", a few bikes would clack, and within the clacker population, some may exhibit greater noise than others.
The above only addresses possible production line problems with the initial boring /prep of the Indian Nikasil cyls (jugs). Nikasil is a proprietery name, owned by Mahle, for nickel silicon carbide plating. Silicon carbide is a very hard ceramic that can be suspended in molten nickel. The nickel solution can then be electroplated ( like chrome plating) onto the aluminum jug's bore. The NiSiC solution has to be carefully "stirred" so that the SiC is evenly distribution within the Ni. Also the voltage and rate of plating must be carefully controlled to ensure that the thickness of the plating is uniform all over the jug's bore; or all that careful boring & prep is wasted. During initial break-in the piston rings scrape off the exposed nickel, leaving a very hard layer of silicon carbide, which keeps the rings and aluminum piston, riding on a film of lube oil, from wearing away the aluminum cyl's bore. As one can see, if the distribution of Sic is not even, some areas of the jug bore will scrape/wear away slightly more during break-in than others, (possibly resulting in greater piston clearance & noise) Note: with Nikasil cyls, even an extra 0.0002 clearance (~1/10 the diameter of a human hair) can produce a clatter noise. Also , if the thickness of the Nikasil plating is uneven, problems can arise. If too tight, it's unlikely the cylinder will pass assembly inspect - but in high production conditions, it's most likely the jugs will be rushed thru a dissipating solution, so depending on quality controls, a few jugs may rec'v plating that is too thin in areas - possibly resulting in excess piston clearance and noise. Unlike a too-thick plated jug, the piston would easily fit during assembly, and the chances of rejection before shipping the bike to a dealer would be low. It should be noted that many hi-production engine manufacturers have experiences the above production issues with Nikasil plated aluminum jugs ( Porsche 911, Audi, BMW, Moto-Guzzi, Ducati, Jaguar are a few who tried it on their production engines and found it too troublesome to maintain QC.) IMHO, Nikasil is best suited for small batch racing, aero, or high-dollar limited production engines where the utmost care and attention to quality is permitted. Indians are made to a rather low profit margin target price - not a good prospect for Nikasil jugs.
I think the clacking will stop when IMC switches to cast steel or cast iron liners in aluminum jugs, (like Harley uses) which are much easier to produce with tight tolerance /uniform clearances...and NO clacking :)
 

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I got the ECU product update done and the piston slap noise it so much quiter.
I had the ECM recall update done and my engine sounds like a sewing machine going nuts. I have 15 Chieftain that I bought new in Oct 15. I have had all of the scheduled maintenance done. It sounds like valves or lifters clicking. I wish I would have stuck with Harley!
 

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what

when I use the term "clackers" I'm referring to those with internal mechanical noise. I've also identified two noises, even though they are present under similar operating conditions. The most common noise, in my professional opinion, sounds like piston slap at bottom dead center reversal. If so, the cause is too much piston skirt to cylinder clearance, most likely due to poor quality control during either cylinder boring and / or the Nikasil plating process. Further tolerance "stack" from an incompatible piston skirt thermal expansion rate, could also make a marginal clearance become noisy under certain operating conditions.
Often when presented with a "mystery" noise in an engine, diagnosing it begins with determining the most likely places to look. Manufacturing experience & approaching the problem from an opposite point of view: such as "How could we manufacturer our engines so all of them clack?" will yield faster results. Taking this approach, here is one way to make a "clacker" :
When the cylinders are bored and prepped for Nikasil plating, they must be clamped between "torque plates", which are thick steel (or sometimes aluminum) plates that simulate the cylinder contact areas of the head and the crankcase. Their purpose is to replicate the distortion of the cylinder that occurs when the head stud/bolts are torque during engine assembly. Typically, when the engine is assembled, and the head/cylinder fasteners are torqued, the cylinder will distort, inwards as much as 0.008", at each head stud/bolt location both at the top and near the bottom of the cylinder. At the bottom, where the cylinder is thin ( the spigot area) the distortion will often create a secondary ripple or corrugated geometry around the bore. When a "raw" unbored cylinder is clamped between TQ plates, this distortion forms inward protruding lobes / corrugated "high spots". The cylinder is then bored, under this condition, removing the high spots and leaving a near perfect cylindrical shape (thermal expansion from the cutting forces, within the cylinder's uneven cross-section areas prevent a perfect cylinder shape), which is then honed or fine-bored to size, within tight tolerances ( typically +/-.0002"). When the cylinder is released from the TQ plates it reverts back to its unloaded shape, so the bored cylinder will now actually have reversed lobe/corrugated "low spots" - it will not "round" out and become cylindrical again until it is installed and torques in position when assembled. This is why it is futile for a tech to mic a cylinder on the bench without first clamping it in the appropriate torque plates. In my shop, we have found that the lower TQ plate's thickness & its clearance on the cyl's spigot has a huge effect on the final geometry and piston clearance at bottom-dead-center, and there fore engine noise. We also have found that we get improved cylinder geometry, faster ring break-in, less gas psi losses, more power if we also install a Multi-Layer-Steel head gasket between the cylinder and upper TQ plates while boring and honing the cyl.There is one more issue or concern when placing cyl's in TQ plates for boring/sizing: proper cyl indexing. Since the distortion/lobing is greater at the location of the 4 head studs/bolts, its important that the cylinder be "Clocked" so those higher clamp loads align with the location of the head studs when assembled. For small job/manufacturing shops like mine, this is not a problem as we use head stud/bolts very similar to those actually used on the engine, passing thru the cylinder's same index (clock) locations, to clamp and load them. Trouble can occur under high production manufacturing, which typically used faster hydraulic or pneumatic means of loading the TQ plates. If a cylinder is placed in the TQ plate fixture slightly off index, the greater portion of the lobed material will be bored out / removed in 4 diametrically opposed areas; 2 of which will be more closely aligned with the piston skirt's max eliptacal (cam) diameter when the cyl is installed on the engine. Problem is, when it's installed, it will be indexed properly, and the loading will distort or "round out" the are next to that when bored, so the cylinder, as assembled on the engine will not be round, instead two areas in nearer alignment within the two piston skirts will have excess clearance - allowing the piston to "slap" during reversal at BDC. Because the clearance changes as the piston and cylinder expands at separate thermal rates and loads, the noise may only be present during a range of rpm, temps, or loads. Because the random loading of an "off-index" cylinder, and even the randomness of the amount of "off-index", a few bikes would clack, and within the clacker population, some may exhibit greater noise than others.
The above only addresses possible production line problems with the initial boring /prep of the Indian Nikasil cyls (jugs). Nikasil is a proprietery name, owned by Mahle, for nickel silicon carbide plating. Silicon carbide is a very hard ceramic that can be suspended in molten nickel. The nickel solution can then be electroplated ( like chrome plating) onto the aluminum jug's bore. The NiSiC solution has to be carefully "stirred" so that the SiC is evenly distribution within the Ni. Also the voltage and rate of plating must be carefully controlled to ensure that the thickness of the plating is uniform all over the jug's bore; or all that careful boring & prep is wasted. During initial break-in the piston rings scrape off the exposed nickel, leaving a very hard layer of silicon carbide, which keeps the rings and aluminum piston, riding on a film of lube oil, from wearing away the aluminum cyl's bore. As one can see, if the distribution of Sic is not even, some areas of the jug bore will scrape/wear away slightly more during break-in than others, (possibly resulting in greater piston clearance & noise) Note: with Nikasil cyls, even an extra 0.0002 clearance (~1/10 the diameter of a human hair) can produce a clatter noise. Also , if the thickness of the Nikasil plating is uneven, problems can arise. If too tight, it's unlikely the cylinder will pass assembly inspect - but in high production conditions, it's most likely the jugs will be rushed thru a dissipating solution, so depending on quality controls, a few jugs may rec'v plating that is too thin in areas - possibly resulting in excess piston clearance and noise. Unlike a too-thick plated jug, the piston would easily fit during assembly, and the chances of rejection before shipping the bike to a dealer would be low. It should be noted that many hi-production engine manufacturers have experiences the above production issues with Nikasil plated aluminum jugs ( Porsche 911, Audi, BMW, Moto-Guzzi, Ducati, Jaguar are a few who tried it on their production engines and found it too troublesome to maintain QC.) IMHO, Nikasil is best suited for small batch racing, aero, or high-dollar limited production engines where the utmost care and attention to quality is permitted. Indians are made to a rather low profit margin target price - not a good prospect for Nikasil jugs.
I think the clacking will stop when IMC switches to cast steel or cast iron liners in aluminum jugs, (like Harley uses) which are much easier to produce with tight tolerance /uniform clearances...and NO clacking :)
What he said
 

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Interesting that an ECU reflash will magically tighten up inside tolerances causing piston slap. Like tune - up in a can.

Piston slap is the secondary movement of a piston against the side of the cylinder bore, according to Pistonslap.com. This perpendicular moving piston comes into contact with the vertical movement of the cylinder bore, causing the audible noise associated with this phenomenon.

So this Indian reflash is kind of like an engine rebuild then. Pretty cool. Best invention of the century
If piston slap was causing the noise there would be an awful lot of engines in being rebuilt due to smoking exhausts and high oil usage. I still believe it is a problem with the Hydraulic lifter being lazy or a bush worn in the overhead gear. I get the clack too, it isnt caused by detonation, I had that problem previously in a harley, it sounds different.
 

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I have bored about 50 motorcycle cylinders in my life and I honestly don't think the noise people are hearing is piston slap or detonation . I have heard some valve train ( lifter ) ticking on occasion but the longer you ride the quieter it gets.

I started my 2000 Dodge with a cummins diesel up , when I was in Taos , @ 13 F. below zero and no block heater. That was like someone beating on a garbage can with a hammer.

I think the words " piston slap " is like music to a lemming's ears.
 

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The idea of using aluminum cylinders without liners is a proven technology pioneered in motorcycles by the Suzuki corporation in 1999 when they built the first Huyabusa. Thousands of those bikes were built with hundreds of thousands of miles accumulated on them and the only thing that runs smoother is your mom's Singer sewing machine. The Ford Shelby GT 500 also used an all aluminum block in 2011 producing 550 hp. With the advent of CNC machines and CAD and CAM the days of piston slap and fast and dirty engines are over .
I read a post where someone had a RM for 24 months with 32k miles ( 1333/month) put an additional $2k plus, in parts in it , had a factory rep. travel to his shop , ride the bike and admit that it was Polaris's fault (piston slap), then left , offering him no compensation , just the satisfaction of an admission of guilt. Still the guy loves the bike , in spite of this unbearable noise and potential implosion.
In jurisprudence the standard of behavior is, " what a reasonable and prudent man would do."
Sell it and move on.
 

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I was just about to create a new post for the same topic. My clacking is gone since the new ECM flash. I have a 2014 Chieftain stage 1&2 with 12000+ miles. Took it in for an oil change and ECM flash on Saturday and yes, the clacking is gone. Rode over 200 miles yesterday with no radio needed to drown out the engine noise, just listened to the beautiful purr of that 111 powerhouse. One happy man here. No longer embarrassed to let my Harley riding friends take her for a spin. I too had that light load throttle clack around 2100-2200 rpm then a more steady lesser clack at 2500 up.
I ordered the unit hoping for the noise to go away
 

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Anyone with a 2016 experiencing excessive noises? Wondering if they fixed problem.
My 2016 Chieftain sounds like a normal engine, cam chest sounds very good, no unusual noises...sounds like a happy Thunder Stroke 111.
=)

Sent from my SM-S903VL using Tapatalk
 

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what

when I use the term "clackers" I'm referring to those with internal mechanical noise. I've also identified two noises, even though they are present under similar operating conditions. The most common noise, in my professional opinion, sounds like piston slap at bottom dead center reversal. If so, the cause is too much piston skirt to cylinder clearance, most likely due to poor quality control during either cylinder boring and / or the Nikasil plating process. Further tolerance "stack" from an incompatible piston skirt thermal expansion rate, could also make a marginal clearance become noisy under certain operating conditions.
Often when presented with a "mystery" noise in an engine, diagnosing it begins with determining the most likely places to look. Manufacturing experience & approaching the problem from an opposite point of view: such as "How could we manufacturer our engines so all of them clack?" will yield faster results. Taking this approach, here is one way to make a "clacker" :
When the cylinders are bored and prepped for Nikasil plating, they must be clamped between "torque plates", which are thick steel (or sometimes aluminum) plates that simulate the cylinder contact areas of the head and the crankcase. Their purpose is to replicate the distortion of the cylinder that occurs when the head stud/bolts are torque during engine assembly. Typically, when the engine is assembled, and the head/cylinder fasteners are torqued, the cylinder will distort, inwards as much as 0.008", at each head stud/bolt location both at the top and near the bottom of the cylinder. At the bottom, where the cylinder is thin ( the spigot area) the distortion will often create a secondary ripple or corrugated geometry around the bore. When a "raw" unbored cylinder is clamped between TQ plates, this distortion forms inward protruding lobes / corrugated "high spots". The cylinder is then bored, under this condition, removing the high spots and leaving a near perfect cylindrical shape (thermal expansion from the cutting forces, within the cylinder's uneven cross-section areas prevent a perfect cylinder shape), which is then honed or fine-bored to size, within tight tolerances ( typically +/-.0002"). When the cylinder is released from the TQ plates it reverts back to its unloaded shape, so the bored cylinder will now actually have reversed lobe/corrugated "low spots" - it will not "round" out and become cylindrical again until it is installed and torques in position when assembled. This is why it is futile for a tech to mic a cylinder on the bench without first clamping it in the appropriate torque plates. In my shop, we have found that the lower TQ plate's thickness & its clearance on the cyl's spigot has a huge effect on the final geometry and piston clearance at bottom-dead-center, and there fore engine noise. We also have found that we get improved cylinder geometry, faster ring break-in, less gas psi losses, more power if we also install a Multi-Layer-Steel head gasket between the cylinder and upper TQ plates while boring and honing the cyl.There is one more issue or concern when placing cyl's in TQ plates for boring/sizing: proper cyl indexing. Since the distortion/lobing is greater at the location of the 4 head studs/bolts, its important that the cylinder be "Clocked" so those higher clamp loads align with the location of the head studs when assembled. For small job/manufacturing shops like mine, this is not a problem as we use head stud/bolts very similar to those actually used on the engine, passing thru the cylinder's same index (clock) locations, to clamp and load them. Trouble can occur under high production manufacturing, which typically used faster hydraulic or pneumatic means of loading the TQ plates. If a cylinder is placed in the TQ plate fixture slightly off index, the greater portion of the lobed material will be bored out / removed in 4 diametrically opposed areas; 2 of which will be more closely aligned with the piston skirt's max eliptacal (cam) diameter when the cyl is installed on the engine. Problem is, when it's installed, it will be indexed properly, and the loading will distort or "round out" the are next to that when bored, so the cylinder, as assembled on the engine will not be round, instead two areas in nearer alignment within the two piston skirts will have excess clearance - allowing the piston to "slap" during reversal at BDC. Because the clearance changes as the piston and cylinder expands at separate thermal rates and loads, the noise may only be present during a range of rpm, temps, or loads. Because the random loading of an "off-index" cylinder, and even the randomness of the amount of "off-index", a few bikes would clack, and within the clacker population, some may exhibit greater noise than others.
The above only addresses possible production line problems with the initial boring /prep of the Indian Nikasil cyls (jugs). Nikasil is a proprietery name, owned by Mahle, for nickel silicon carbide plating. Silicon carbide is a very hard ceramic that can be suspended in molten nickel. The nickel solution can then be electroplated ( like chrome plating) onto the aluminum jug's bore. The NiSiC solution has to be carefully "stirred" so that the SiC is evenly distribution within the Ni. Also the voltage and rate of plating must be carefully controlled to ensure that the thickness of the plating is uniform all over the jug's bore; or all that careful boring & prep is wasted. During initial break-in the piston rings scrape off the exposed nickel, leaving a very hard layer of silicon carbide, which keeps the rings and aluminum piston, riding on a film of lube oil, from wearing away the aluminum cyl's bore. As one can see, if the distribution of Sic is not even, some areas of the jug bore will scrape/wear away slightly more during break-in than others, (possibly resulting in greater piston clearance & noise) Note: with Nikasil cyls, even an extra 0.0002 clearance (~1/10 the diameter of a human hair) can produce a clatter noise. Also , if the thickness of the Nikasil plating is uneven, problems can arise. If too tight, it's unlikely the cylinder will pass assembly inspect - but in high production conditions, it's most likely the jugs will be rushed thru a dissipating solution, so depending on quality controls, a few jugs may rec'v plating that is too thin in areas - possibly resulting in excess piston clearance and noise. Unlike a too-thick plated jug, the piston would easily fit during assembly, and the chances of rejection before shipping the bike to a dealer would be low. It should be noted that many hi-production engine manufacturers have experiences the above production issues with Nikasil plated aluminum jugs ( Porsche 911, Audi, BMW, Moto-Guzzi, Ducati, Jaguar are a few who tried it on their production engines and found it too troublesome to maintain QC.) IMHO, Nikasil is best suited for small batch racing, aero, or high-dollar limited production engines where the utmost care and attention to quality is permitted. Indians are made to a rather low profit margin target price - not a good prospect for Nikasil jugs.
I think the clacking will stop when IMC switches to cast steel or cast iron liners in aluminum jugs, (like Harley uses) which are much easier to produce with tight tolerance /uniform clearances...and NO clacking :)
Do you offer a sleeved cylinder for the 111?,I was hopeful someone would come out with a stock bore sleeved cylinder,that wasn't in the thousands of dollars.i have bought Harley cast iron cylinders for 200 bucks,had cylinders bored for 40 bucks.v 8 blocks I send out get bored out at 80 bucks a hole.why are Indians so expensive?.
 

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The idea of using aluminum cylinders without liners is a proven technology pioneered in motorcycles by the Suzuki corporation in 1999 when they built the first Huyabusa. Thousands of those bikes were built with hundreds of thousands of miles accumulated on them and the only thing that runs smoother is your mom's Singer sewing machine. The Ford Shelby GT 500 also used an all aluminum block in 2011 producing 550 hp. With the advent of CNC machines and CAD and CAM the days of piston slap and fast and dirty engines are over .
I read a post where someone had a RM for 24 months with 32k miles ( 1333/month) put an additional $2k plus, in parts in it , had a factory rep. travel to his shop , ride the bike and admit that it was Polaris's fault (piston slap), then left , offering him no compensation , just the satisfaction of an admission of guilt. Still the guy loves the bike , in spite of this unbearable noise and potential implosion.
In jurisprudence the standard of behavior is, " what a reasonable and prudent man would do."
Sell it and move on.
Polaris has termed it a "nuisance noise".
 

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I'm looking to purchase a 2017 roadmaster icon with 2300 miles. I haven't seen the actual bike just pictures. Is the piston an issue best left for someone else to deal with? Should I look for a 18 or newer?
I haven't heard this bike run, but I looked at another 17 roadmaster today. Thought it sounded funny told my wife if it was a old chevy 350 I would have thought it had a bad wrist pin.
 

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I'm looking to purchase a 2017 roadmaster icon with 2300 miles. I haven't seen the actual bike just pictures. Is the piston an issue best left for someone else to deal with? Should I look for a 18 or newer?
I haven't heard this bike run, but I looked at another 17 roadmaster today. Thought it sounded funny told my wife if it was a old chevy 350 I would have thought it had a bad wrist pin.
Depends on the price, your tolerance for risk, and your tolerance for maintenance issues. It might be worth it if the price is right. Not every bike has a problem. But personally, I've stopped considering 17's for the same reason.
 

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The day I bought it in 2014. It has only 12000 kilometers on it and I have changed oil with Indian oil and filter 6 times now. The dealer acknowledges the noise and says that it is louder than most other bikes and Indian would not open a case on it. They keep telling me it is normal and that if I take it to the dealer for work/teardown and they do not determine that there is anything warrant able then I get to pay the bill.. so much for 5 year warranty. don't get me wrong.. I love my Chieftain but hate this noise that gets worse by the day.
My 2018 Chieftain limited made noise and the dealershipsaid some are noisier than others....when I went in to get my Stage ll my mechanic said they had a fix, a timing chain tensioner which was heavier duty than the old one...it is really qiet now.
 
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