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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Getting the 585's installed at the Dealer. He says they have done a great many installs, and NO customer has reported any problems with stock clutch, that would require the heavy duty springs. Ok....there a LOTS of entries on this forum. My question thusly , is obvious.
What is the truth?
 

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Regardless what the truth is, it's recommended by the guy who created them, and on top of that, they don't cost THAT much so why not just have it done anyways while stuff is apart rather than find out later that his customers are starting to have issues.
 

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As far as the clutch springs I had no issues with mine 2017 Chieftain.

If ur bike doe's not have the heavy valve springs get them!
I believe IM put the larger springs in year 2019.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Regardless what the truth is, it's recommended by the guy who created them, and on top of that, they don't cost THAT much so why not just have it done anyways while stuff is apart rather than find out later that his customers are starting to have issues.
Agreed. Thank You
 

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What is the dealer charging for the cam install? Just curious, because it looks like a fun job for me to do, but MASSIVE downside if I drop the rods. Probably worth some bucks to let the dealer take that risk.

Good luck with the clutch! Interested to hear about that too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
What is the dealer charging for the cam install? Just curious, because it looks like a fun job for me to do, but MASSIVE downside if I drop the rods. Probably worth some bucks to let the dealer take that risk.

Good luck with the clutch! Interested to hear about that too.
Almost 1600, that includes fuel management device, and technical support
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
What is the dealer charging for the cam install? Just curious, because it looks like a fun job for me to do, but MASSIVE downside if I drop the rods. Probably worth some bucks to let the dealer take that risk.

Good luck with the clutch! Interested to hear about that too.
The clutch will work or it wont
 

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Okay - $600ish for cams, $400ish for fuel management device, so $600 for labor and expertise. Not awful, but not great. Thanks for sharing!!
 

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I have the cams in my 17 RM with stock clutch with no problems.
I agree does not hurt upgrading valve springs, however mine are also stock and my beasties tears new arseholes out of UltraGlides. Probably depends a lot on how you ride, whether you drag the clutch or not and luck
 

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Really guys ?????

@Lodge keeper , apparently you've read at least some of the threads about this.. You didn't find the answer ?

Reaching the limit of the stock clutch has nothing to do with cam choices, exhaust choices, etc etc etc - it has EVERYTHING to do with with the power curves of your engine.

We've (the forum) found out - mostly the hard way, through "hard knocks" - that the stock clutch has a limit of 100 - 105 hp ALONG WITH ~125 TRQ, AND on a "standard thunderstroke" power curve shape.

Regardless of how you achieve this power limit, once there, your stock clutch will fail - sooner or later depending upon how much you "enjoy" your new power levels when you ride.

If your dealer has no reports of clutch slippage, then they have no customers that have managed to create 100+hp/125+ TRQ Thunderstrokes.. It takes a lot more than 585's to create that level of power ( the limit of the stock clutch)..

You must know the 116 BB kit comes with heavier clutch springs - Polaris requires them for the power levels THEY produce from the kit (Which does NOT reach 100+HP/125+TRQ).. They are being conservative, and not wanting to increase warranty clutch repair costs.. Standard Indian Stage III power levels and clutch springs maintain "as stock" reliability.
 

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I need to add to @Indianster ' s post:

A lot depends as well on the condition/age of your clutch when the power increase gets "activated".
And a sensible rider will notice clutch slippage early before real failure!

I swapped in a Barnett extra plate kit (with Barnett springs) once I noticed in 6th gear twisting it on the highway got "strange rpm increase not in sync with speed increase". That was soon after I added the 585s to my otherwise maxed out stage1 setup (and tune).
 

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I've added heavier Barntett clutch springs (not the full clutch kit) that are a little less stiff than Indian's but an upgrade over stock, in anticipation of installing S3 cams in my 2019 111. Should be sufficient, and they are cheaper than Indian's. I believe Craig B did the same.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Really guys ?????

@Lodge keeper , apparently you've read at least some of the threads about this.. You didn't find the answer ?

Reaching the limit of the stock clutch has nothing to do with cam choices, exhaust choices, etc etc etc - it has EVERYTHING to do with with the power curves of your engine.

We've (the forum) found out - mostly the hard way, through "hard knocks" - that the stock clutch has a limit of 100 - 105 hp ALONG WITH ~125 TRQ, AND on a "standard thunderstroke" power curve shape.

Regardless of how you achieve this power limit, once there, your stock clutch will fail - sooner or later depending upon how much you "enjoy" your new power levels when you ride.

If your dealer has no reports of clutch slippage, then they have no customers that have managed to create 100+hp/125+ TRQ Thunderstrokes.. It takes a lot more than 585's to create that level of power ( the limit of the stock clutch)..

You must know the 116 BB kit comes with heavier clutch springs - Polaris requires them for the power levels THEY produce from the kit (Which does NOT reach 100+HP/125+TRQ).. They are being conservative, and not wanting to increase warranty clutch repair costs.. Standard Indian Stage III power levels and clutch springs maintain "as stock" reliability.
(y)Thank You.....very informed response ! There are no plans to see how much hp this 111 could make. Just the cams is sufficient for me. So...based on you response...no further modifications. Thank You !!
 

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(y)Thank You.....very informed response ! There are no plans to see how much hp this 111 could make. Just the cams is sufficient for me. So...based on you response...no further modifications. Thank You !!
Your are surely "good to go".. BUT, with very few"extras" bolted onto your bike, and most importantly - a well done performance tune - you WILL be at or over the stock clutch limit. The rarity of "max performance 585 tuning" on this planet is why you'll likely never make the "clutch killing" power from your bike. You WILL need a tune of some sort, BTW..

But, as with @cmoalem's 111 - 585's with the VP60, Rinehart Headers, mufflers off a Fiat*, and "cutting edge" thunderstroke PV3 tuning, you will be beyond "stiffer clutch spring" power... and require the Barnett extra plate kit or similar..

NOTE: To avoid clutch issues with a 585'd 111, do not buy, and use, a Fuel Moto PV3. NOR fit a PCV to the bike (The O2 sensor should be left active and functioning..), run down to the local dyno shop, and tell them you want a good tune BUT MUST HAVE a 12.6:1 WOT AFR and +2° ignition advance in the 100% throttle position..

*meaning Indian Stage 1 slipons, or other slipons with a 1.75" baffle
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Your are surely "good to go".. BUT, with very few"extras" bolted onto your bike, and most importantly - a well done performance tune - you WILL be at or over the stock clutch limit. The rarity of "max performance 585 tuning" on this planet is why you'll likely never make the "clutch killing" power from your bike. You WILL need a tune of some sort, BTW..

But, as with @cmoalem's 111 - 585's with the VP60, Rinehart Headers, mufflers off a Fiat*, and "cutting edge" thunderstroke PV3 tuning, you will be beyond "stiffer clutch spring" power... and require the Barnett extra plate kit or similar..

NOTE: To avoid clutch issues with a 585'd 111, do not buy, and use, a Fuel Moto PV3. NOR fit a PCV to the bike (The O2 sensor should be left active and functioning..), run down to the local dyno shop, and tell them you want a good tune BUT MUST HAVE a 12.6:1 AFR and +2° ignition advance in the 100% throttle position..

*meaning Indian Stage 1 slipons, or other slipons with a 1.75" baffle
Well...ha ha....the fuel management device is indeed PCV , and the dealer will be utilizing remote technical support. Perhaps he has some springs in stock, lol
 

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It would be a "stroke of luck" for you to end up with a tune that truly "unleashes" your 585's... Using a "remote service" that does NOT include sending engine operation telemetry ( especially wideband O2 AFR telemetry) can only produce outcomes from "best guesses" tuning. 585's create a "special needs" engine (tuning-wise), we have found this out but the "tuning industry" seems oblivious...

In fact, forum empirical evidence would suggest that your bike could very well have undesirable "artifacts" caused by the tune , that you will be asked to "live with".. If so, you'll have no choice but to handle your tuning problem yourself - as they will have exhausted their capability..

Not doom and glooming you, just arming you up - and with the best of wishes..
 

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I have the S3 cams and upgraded valve springs in the heads. On one of my tuning runs, she just starts to pull right through the clutch. 10K on the bike. Lots of tuning runs. I put in the VTwin replacement springs. Seems to hold now.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I have the S3 cams and upgraded valve springs in the heads. On one of my tuning runs, she just starts to pull right through the clutch. 10K on the bike. Lots of tuning runs. I put in the VTwin replacement springs. Seems to hold now.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk
Thank you....Can you tell me how much time it requires? Just springs...Thanks !
 
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