[Clint C]

Have a 2018 Chieftain with rush warhorse slip ons, arlen ness monster sucker intake stage 1, want to go with cams and I am leaning towards the 558 cams, but I am intrigued by the 585, now I am not interested in racing or constantly being in the higher rpm range, more into cruising at 75 to 80 mph, what king of fuel mileage are people getting with the cams and what is the reliability of the cams, I put no 10000, to 15000 miles in a shortened riding season. Don't want to be done because of the wrong cam choice. Any input is appreciated.

 

[Indianster]

As per the forum knowledge- ( Racnray's meticulous cam profiling, member findings, etc) - you cannot use either with your current valvetrain. You are relegated to the Stage II cams until you upgrade the springs, retainers, etc, on your '18.

Before you protest, this has nothing to do with your intended primary RPM range, racing, or anything else you've mentioned. It has to do with the fact that either cam pushes your valve springs to near coil bind on every revolution of your engine - be it idle or WOT ...

Believe the data and the findings, or ignore it.

Some have been lucky so far, they will not be able to resist chiming in about how they have XYZ miles on theirs (and that you should try your luck too..)

The others - those that have broken a spring or caught the seat damage before failure, will hopefully bring rationality to the other side of the scale..

BTW, these facts doubly suk for me - having two '16 111's..

 

[greasemonkey]

You can never go wrong being on the conservative side with camshaft choices.

 

[Clint C]

No protest, as per Lloydz and the forums on the subject, I realize that there is valve train work required with any modifications, so my question still is, what is the reliability of the two cams and what kind of fuel milage are people getting.

 

[Dean E]

No protest, as per Lloydz and the forums on the subject, I realize that there is valve train work required with any modifications, so my question still is, what is the reliability of the two cams and what kind of fuel milage are people getting.

As long as you get an aftermarket tune from a PV3 the mileage difference will be minimal. The bigger question is what you are after. If you like the lopey idle then the 558s are not for you. They are a smooth idle like the stock bike. The 585s or the stage 3 cams are more aggressive and have more lope to the idle. The biggest issue on the 585s is the amount of valvetrain noise that you will get. Definitely a lot more valvetrain chatter from the 585s. The stage 3 cams have about the same lift and duration as the 585s but the ramp profile is not as aggressive so you don't have as much valvetrain noise. Stage 2 cams have a lopey idle and good performance but not as strong as the 558s but a good choice for a big cruiser with more top end power that the stock cams. The 558, 585 and stage 3 cams will all need the better springs to keep from chewing up the valve spring seats. Not a requirement for the stage 2 cams. All with the proper tune will not give you a decrease in MPG as long as you get a good aftermarket tune with a PV3. This was a issue on the original stage 2 factory flash but I hear the new flash for stage 2 is much better that what I had to deal with. Dean

 

[Indianster]

No protest, as per Lloydz and the forums on the subject, I realize that there is valve train work required with any modifications, so my question still is, what is the reliability of the two cams and what kind of fuel mileage are people getting.

Ok then !
With the upgraded valvetrain components, the 585's are the hands down best performing over the entire RPM range.
You have to have a proper "585 tune" to get all the benefit though. (starting with a 12.55 - 12.7 AFR @ WOT)..
You also have to be prepared for increased valvetrain noise - as everyone should now know - with 585's..

Before Lloydz removed their Dyno charts ( they had up on each of their cam choices) even their own charts clearly show that the 585's outclass the 558's at all RPM points.

Mileage and reliability are non issues - except that a proper tune with either cam can beat stock mileage. (The "science" of why is under the subject of what happens when you increase the volumetric efficiency of an ICE over its' entire RPM range.)

BTW, at this time, forum knowledge indicates that Stage III cams are the best choice over the 585's. Not quite the performance potential of 585's, but with so few capable of properly tuning 585's for max output, it may not matter.. And SIII's are quieter..

 

[Clint C]

Ok, that is good to know, I understand why Lloydz removed the graph chart, different tune etc. and the fact that showing the graphs would absolutely kill the sales of the 558 cams, That being said how can a person get a hold of a set of stage three cams without buying the full kit, I am looking for a bit more performance without the $7500 Canadian tag associated with it, I realize that after everything is done, it can be undone, but that is a cost I am looking to avoid.

 

[Indianster]

You are correct on all points..

Lack of 558 sales surely prompted Lloydz to remove the charts - I have them saved, BTW, for any that want to see them..

Getting S3's is problematic - for all the reasons you mentioned.

Then there is the fact that any current offering (above SII's) require the extensive/expensive valvetrain refit..

On your bike, as it is equipped now, with the "elbo" intake and warhorses (you didn't say which baffle size you are running) , adding SII's with a good tune will make a good jump in performance. We know the VP60 (Vic Bagger elbo intake with 60mm Throttle body) + proper slipons + SII cams + good PC5 or PV3 tune can make over 100hp/ 130trq..
Perhaps your Arlen Ness and Warhorses wouldn't be too far behind that (with SII's) .. Your problem will be getting a "good" tune, for your particular mod combo, in the upper RPM range and at WOT. It will have to be a custom tune as there are no canned tunes for the Arlen Ness intake. And it will have to be on a dyno, else you will have to ride/log WOT to top RPM for the data gathering with a PV3. All this boils down to where you live and where the nearest known competent PV3 dyno shop is to you OR use CraigB1960 thru the Fuel Moto Remote Tuning Service OR use a PC5 and a good local dyno tuning shop that will do what you tell them you want (WOT AFR of 12.6:1 to 12.8:1, etc)..

 

[Clint C]

Ya, I am seriously considering getting rid of the Ness intake, currently I am running the 21/2 inch baffles but have a set of 3 and a set of 2-1/4 inch as well, with the ness I find the stage one tune really isn't working, hence the reason for me looking at the power vision from fuel moto and unfortunately the only dyno and tuner that is available to me is at a Harley repair shop and they don't want to touch an Indian. So if I go with the Lloydz intake or switch back to the indian performance intake seems to be the better option

 

[Indianster]

OH ! Wait then..

If you don't even have a good dyno shop, and considering your current dilemma, before doing cams you really should get a Fuel Moto PV3 and have Craig tune your bike !

Once he is done, you may change your mind about cams - the performance increase will be that big !

PS. Once in Craigs' hands, he can advise you, but the 2.25's are going to offer the best overall power band ( and as long as you still like the exhaust note the 2.25's make ) .. We know TABS with 2.5 baffles lose TRQ over the Indian Stage 1 slipons ( 1.75" ? or are they 2" ??)

 

[Clint C]

Ok, step one, pv3, get a proper tune, and go from there, was really not impressed with the stage one tune, and my local shop is more concerned with the Polaris side of thing, being in Canada the side by side, ATV and snow machines , when I asked them about any of this, I was told anything other than factory would void my warranty. I have played with many a muscle car, and can mess and tune those, but first real time have thought doing anything with any of my bikes, like I said any input is appreciated.

 

[Indianster]

The Bosch ME17 is employing a "Load Based Solution" for engine mgmt. Quite a different "monkey"...

However, once you and Craig have your VE table corrected ( the "biggy"), Cylinder to Cylinder fueling balanced, and a "more sane" ignition scheme in place (as well as all the other "CraigB1960 FM Remote Tune Service" enhancements) , you will be very happy. And if you are really wanting to tinker with your tables, you'll have a great "baseline" to tinker with !

You can always reflash your stock tune back onto your bike before a dealership service visit..

 

[Indianster]

Hey @CraigB1960 ...
Calling @CraigB1960 ...

Craig, read up the thread.. Clint really needs your direction ..

 

[CraigB1960]

@Indianster has given you good advise (as have the others on this thread). Any of the aftermarket cams other than the Indian Stage 2 cams will require new high-lift valve springs. If you are not able to do this yourself, it is (IMHO) too cost prohibitive paying for this to be done for the performance achieved. The Stage 2 cams are good performers with a good tune.

Your setup is fine, go with the 2.25" baffles, put in a set of stage 2 cams, get the factory flash to support it. Buy the PV3 (preferably from FuelmotoUSA) and try the two tunes you will get from them. If then you want it really dialed in to your bike, purchased their Advanced Remote Tuning Service and together we will get it where you want it.

You can also do the above without the stage 2 cams. The tune I send out for FM for stage 1 is really good. It might be all you want without the stage 2 cams.

As Indianster pointed out, flash it back to the factory calibration when taking it back to the dealer for work.

 

[Sith Life]

If you're interested in the S3 cams you can get them by buying the new Stage 2 kit from Indian for the 116 motor. They come with S3 cams, injectors, and a 60mm throttle body. You won't use the throttle body or injectors as the 111 doesn't need it, nor will it be easy to tune for. You can sell those parts but honestly I've yet to see anyone looking for either of those so you may be stuck with them. You could also try waiting it out to see if someone sells their S3 cams when they decide to go with another choice on their 116 kit. That's what I did and the S3 cams in a 111 pull hard and I don't have more valvetrain noise than I did with stock (the 585s are noisy as hell).

CraigB1960 is tuning my bike now but I've been set back by weather and family responsibilities to get more logging done. We are about 70% complete with the tuning and my bike is running strong. After it's all tidied up I'm going to hit the local dyno shop and get some numbers.

 

[Rac1664]

If you're interested in the S3 cams you can get them by buying the new Stage 2 kit from Indian for the 116 motor. They come with S3 cams, injectors, and a 60mm throttle body. You won't use the throttle body or injectors as the 111 doesn't need it, nor will it be easy to tune for. You can sell those parts but honestly I've yet to see anyone looking for either of those so you may be stuck with them. You could also try waiting it out to see if someone sells their S3 cams when they decide to go with another choice on their 116 kit. That's what I did and the S3 cams in a 111 pull hard and I don't have more valvetrain noise than I did with stock (the 585s are noisy as hell).

CraigB1960 is tuning my bike now but I've been set back by weather and family responsibilities to get more logging done. We are about 70% complete with the tuning and my bike is running strong. After it's all tidied up I'm going to hit the local dyno shop and get some numbers.

Finished mine last week. Trust me, you won’t be disappointed. Craig is awesome!

 

[Indianster]

Well Clint, there you have it.. Craig, since his stage 1 tune is what is offered by FM, has given you the "baby steps" to achieve what you're wanting - and on the best "bang for buck" basis..

Good luck,
P.S. It sure would be nice to have a dyno chart on your mod combo after you are happy with the bike. We have no data for the Arlen Ness "elbo" intake performance potential.. I'm expecting it to be a "TRQ maker" and not so much a high RPM HP enhancer..

 

[Clint C]

I thank you all for the input, now start with baby steps, I f I still had a garage, I would tackle this, but since I don't, have to be at the mercy of my local dealer, so, start out small, get the PV3 see what it is like, and then go from there, talked to the dealer already and it is about $1100-1200 for stage 2 installed, start out small, may go big at some point, but after listening to your suggestions, will see how things go and work from there

 

[Dean E]

I thank you all for the input, now start with baby steps, I f I still had a garage, I would tackle this, but since I don't, have to be at the mercy of my local dealer, so, start out small, get the PV3 see what it is like, and then go from there, talked to the dealer already and it is about $1100-1200 for stage 2 installed, start out small, may go big at some point, but after listening to your suggestions, will see how things go and work from there

That seems kinda steep for doing stage 2. You got $570 US for the kit and a good shop that has experience doing cam swaps can do it in about 2.5 hrs of shop labor. Dean

 

[Clint C]

That seems kinda steep for doing stage 2. You got $570 US for the kit and a good shop that has experience doing cam swaps can do it in about 2.5 hrs of shop labor. Dean

Ya, our dollar is at $1.35 exchange, and $140 an hour shop rate, it is $770 for the cams and $350 for the shop and 11% pst and gst, we get taxed hard up here