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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Since it has been determined that upgraded springs (and the attending expense) are required for either cam on 2018 and older Thunderstrokes, I thought the power curve differences should be made succinct and easy to find on our forum.

These are the Lloydz website charts for the two cams. Lloydz has removed their/these charts from their website (it is easy to see why) , but I had saved them.

Thanks to @Morphy for his work in "aligning" the two Lloydz charts onto eachother - they had different scalings and required matching the RPM points. WIth @Morphy 's effort and skill, we have an "easy to see" comparison straight from Lloydz (the horses' mouth).

These/this engine(s) are using Lloydz slipons and a Lloydz air cleaner ( Their ArrowHead IIRC)

579954


Here are the two charts as they appeared on the Lloydz website:

558
579955


585
579956
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
All members should be fully aware of the nuances of these cams as that information is readily available here - There should be no need to reiterate the idiosyncrasies here.

The quality of the tuning will absolutely determine what you end up with for power. From many angles, including member data, the 585's can only reach maximum performance when fueled at 12.6 to one at WOT - which is apparently NOT achieved / put into effect with most tunes and from most "tuning shops".

The current configurations/measurements of the cam options dictate that Stage III's are likely the best option (when all considerations are taken into account) - but until/unless they become available as a stand-alone purchase, they are not cost effective.
 

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If I understood @CraigB1960 correctly from a recent post where he had measured and compared cams:

The stageIII cams and the Lloydz 558s are similar ... with the closing ramp on the 558s (and of course the 585s) being drastic which make them acoustically noticeable.

Not going to ditch my 585s for stageIIIs ... got used to them!
(the noise is not dominant at idle ... and riding around I cannot hear them over my exhaust note!)

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
The 585's produce, can produce, more power than any other option we know of , if tuned correctly.

Without proper WOT fueling/ignition tuning (AKA the cookie-cutter tuning shop dyno tunes running 13:1 @ WOT), I bet it doesn't matter which cams one installs - they probably all make the same power with a lean WOT (13.0 - 13.2 )..
 

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The 585's produce, can produce, more power than any other option we know of , if tuned correctly.

Without proper WOT fueling/ignition tuning (AKA the cookie-cutter tuning shop dyno tunes running 13:1 @ WOT), I bet it doesn't matter which cams one installs - they probably all make the same power with a lean WOT (12.9 - 13.2 )..
You can assume my tune is maxed out.
Am running ~12.6 at WOT (until component protection kicks in LOL)
WBCX here ya know ;)




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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
You can assume my tune is maxed out.
Am running ~12.6 at WOT (until component protection kicks in LOL)
WBCX here ya know ;)




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Absolutely C , your foray into testing lower 12's (thanks for letting me take part in that) , and your reports of results are one of the few "data sets" we have for how to get max benefit from 585's..

Most everyone else (with typical "dyno shop tunes") are blowing their "still combusting" lean mixtures out their tailpipes (@WOT) because the 585's open the exhaust valves so much earlier !!!!
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
What would be quite interesting (with 585 usage) is using a dead stock, as delivered, ignition and Main Target AFR Table, redefine ONLY the VE table (in order to hit the stock AFR targets) and Dyno chart it..

For many technical reasons/deductions, I think the results would be "eye opening" ...
 

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I am considering upgrading from my 558s to 585s,but a bit concerned about the potential noise..my 558s have a slight sewing machine noise but not as loud as the videos of owners with the 585s
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
@Skidmore111 , while working on a "properly phrased" response, something new occurred to me.. A realization, a new deduction from the forums' power data postings, that I'd not thought of before.

The recent "outlier", a posting of a dyno chart from a Lloydz tuned 116 (2021 Roadmaster Limited, Lloyds 585 cams, V&H’s...) has had me reviewing the forums' compendium of power charts - so it wasn't much of a stretch to "refigure" it all from a cam choice angle.

So, based on an analysis of the forums' chart data :

For the vast majority of TS owners, it makes NO DIFFERENCE which cam is being run . SIII's , 558's, and 585's all make the similar power levels for the vast majority of the memberships' posted builds and data.

Outliers prove what is possible with 585's, but unless successful measures are taken to maximize the power levels offered by 585's, they will make power "same as" 558's or SIII's.

I am racking my brain to come up with any "in business" tuner, other than @VALLEYRACING or Llyodz, that has demonstrated the ability to maximize TS builds. The only outlier on this subject is the top performing TS we have data for, which was tuned using a PCV on top of a PV3 flash by a Canadian tuning shop..
 

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@Skidmore111 , while working on a "properly phrased" response, something new occurred to me.. A realization, a new deduction from the forums' power data postings, that I'd not thought of before.

The recent "outlier", a posting of a dyno chart from a Lloydz tuned 116 (2021 Roadmaster Limited, Lloyds 585 cams, V&H’s...) has had me reviewing the forums' compendium of power charts - so it wasn't much of a stretch to "refigure" it all from a cam choice angle.

So, based on an analysis of the forums' chart data :

For the vast majority of TS owners, it makes NO DIFFERENCE which cam is being run . SIII's , 558's, and 585's all make the similar power levels for the vast majority of the memberships' posted builds and data.

Outliers prove what is possible with 585's, but unless successful measures are taken to maximize the power levels offered by 585's, they will make power "same as" 558's or SIII's.

I am racking my brain to come up with any "in business" tuner, other than @VALLEYRACING or Llyodz, that has demonstrated the ability to maximize TS builds. The only outlier on this subject is the top performing TS we have data for, which was tuned using a PCV on top of a PV3 flash by a Canadian tuning shop..
I’m sure you are talking of Marquis. Indianster, I am very curious about something. Why is the PCV needed along with the PV3? What can the PCV do that cannot be done just with the PV3?
 

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Adding a PCV on top of an ECU flash is a common practice and provides a very quick and easier method to "fine tune" the AFR. ECU flashes, unless a flash for their skoot has been generated by either on road data logging or on a dyno, is a generic or canned tune. These tunes (flashes) can be close with minimal glitches, or not, and the PVC is a quick and easy unit to optimize the AFR.

I had a customer's skoot that had a popular flash for his combo, and had glitches that I had to iron out on my dyno with a PCV.

RACNRAY
 
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Adding a PCV on top of an ECU flash is a common practice and provides a very quick and easier method to "fine tune" the AFR. ECU flashes, unless a flash for their skoot has been generated by either on road data logging or on a dyno, is a generic or canned tune. These tunes (flashes) can be close with minimal glitches, or not, and the PVC is a quick and easy unit to optimize the AFR.

I had a customer's skoot that had a popular flash for his combo, and had glitches that I had to iron out on my dyno with a PCV.

RACNRAY
Ok, so basically if you had the time, knowledge and lots of red lashing to get the AFR right, you COULD get the same results from a PV3 without the PCV, but it’s just quicker and easier to adjust the ARF. That makes since.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
I’m sure you are talking of Marquis. Indianster, I am very curious about something. Why is the PCV needed along with the PV3? What can the PCV do that cannot be done just with the PV3?
I'd like to add to @RACNRAY 's response.

First, let us agree that a "PV3 Tune" should be thought of as an all-encompassing, idle to redline, modification of whatever programming is currently running on the ECM - the goal of which is to provide proper running , best performance, and best efficiency. Once done, the ECM is running the new programming - so the "PV3 tune" becomes "the tune" running on the engine - the PV3 can be removed and put on a shelf as it's job is done..

Without going into the myriad of reasons why, it is basically impossible for an owner to get a "PV3 tune" that achieves max performance, max economy, as well as best operation.
AFAIK, the Lloydz remote tuning, or Lloydz in-house PV3 tuning is as close as one can get, at this time, to an "all-round best outcome" reprogramming of the ECM.

This means that practically all owners - no doubt at least 99.9 of you - that are running some kind of PV3 tune, actually just have a good basic foundation for which much can be built upon. IN PARTICULAR, the FM canned tunes should be considered MANDATORY as a baseline tune due to the various "unlocking" the FM canned tunes provide..


The PCV is the simplest way to build upon the programming that is running on an Indian ECM. Any tuning shop can tune fueling and ignition with a PCV and many may have enough knowledge of what a TS requires as to be able to find lots of additional performance - exactly as was done on Marquis' engine ( 117hp / 144trq ) ..

Anyone with 585's really should go down to the local tuner and have them install a PCV with orders to provide a WOT AFR of 12.6 from off idle to redline. Then hang on tight !
 

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The complexity of tuning open loop with a PVCX/PV3 :

You NEED wide band AFR data IN SYNC with all the other (neccessary) PV3 data channels to be able to run the VE correction scripts for WOT/open loop!

So either you need a WBCX module with wideband sensors fixed to your bike OR the dyno operator of choice has a Dynojet dyno WITH up to date Power Core software and tuning license for PV3 (to be able to use WB probes connected to a Dynojet module part of his Dynojet dyno AND have it all synced with the data channels running "street (remote) tuning" pulls on the dyno).

Power Commander V tuning for open loop is much less compute/algorithmic but much more experience! Good operators need only to look at some graphs (rpm/WB AFR obtained from any dyno) and know which map table areas for the simpler PCV they need to tweak how! (And no Dynojet dyno needed for that ... any dyno would do.)

So ... as @Indianster has pointed out: for the mass of precanned PV3 tune users out there: the PCV opens a simple door to get open loop wot tuning right WITHOUT a WBCX wideband module (which mostly gets a fixed position on the bike as well!).

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The complexity of tuning open loop with a PVCX/PV3 :

You NEED wide band AFR data IN SYNC with all the other (neccessary) PV3 data channels to be able to run the VE correction scripts for WOT/open loop!

So either you need a WBCX module with wideband sensors fixed to your bike OR the dyno operator of choice has a Dynojet dyno WITH up to date Power Core software and tuning license for PV3 (to be able to use WB probes connected to a Dynojet module part of his Dynojet dyno AND have it all synced with the data channels running "street (remote) tuning" pulls on the dyno).

Power Commander V tuning for open loop is much less compute/algorithmic but much more experience! Good operators need only to look at some graphs (rpm/WB AFR obtained from any dyno) and know which map table areas for the simpler PCV they need to tweak how! (And no Dynojet dyno needed for that ... any dyno would do.)

So ... as @Indianster has pointed out: for the mass of precanned PV3 tune users out there: the PCV opens a simple door to get open loop wot tuning right WITHOUT a WBCX wideband module (which mostly gets a fixed position on the bike as well!).

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Or just purchase the WBCX for the PV3 and tune your bike and install the Wideband o2 sensors and interface. This is what the Lloyd'z remote tuning does, but you don't keep the WB equipment. The equations for WB tuning only are built in Power Core to get it done. Or there are wb/nb tune equations from Dynojet available (not based on ours).

I would not run the PCV in conjunction with a PV3 tune. It just seems like a kludge to me and the cost is the same.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Craig, I'm thinking there's a few of us in here that could successfully do the PV3+WBCX thing.

Aside from the expense of that equipment and technical expertise needed to operate that equipment, the knowledge of what to "shoot for" regarding fueling and ignition tuning kicks out everyone.. ( except a few of us)..

The knowledge that is needed is the deal killer.. Just acquiring the knowledge of knowing the indication of when an ignition advance setting (at a/any given RPM point) HAD reached optimization as well as a good read on the maximum coarseness of safe advance changes took me a very long time of reading white papers and condensing the data..


FYI, there is a recent post of a chart from a Llyodz customer ( in-house tuned) 116 with 585's, a crappy A/C and crappy slipons = 110hp / 134trq SAE..

That's what can happen when tuning knowledge of what makes TS's come alive is combined with the proper usage of the above equipment.. A rare thing these days..

For the rest, the PCV would have to be used to create max power levels, rideability, and economy from the ECM's programming by any local shop.. Also, if need be, the PCV could be limited to engage only when WOT is used by the rider - to provide max power levels at WOT only..
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
BTW... C, were you ever able to normalize/synchronize the WB data streams to the other data streams in a "post production" operation - or re-timing in real time ?
 

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@Skidmore111 , while working on a "properly phrased" response, something new occurred to me.. A realization, a new deduction from the forums' power data postings, that I'd not thought of before.

The recent "outlier", a posting of a dyno chart from a Lloydz tuned 116 (2021 Roadmaster Limited, Lloyds 585 cams, V&H’s...) has had me reviewing the forums' compendium of power charts - so it wasn't much of a stretch to "refigure" it all from a cam choice angle.

So, based on an analysis of the forums' chart data :

For the vast majority of TS owners, it makes NO DIFFERENCE which cam is being run . SIII's , 558's, and 585's all make the similar power levels for the vast majority of the memberships' posted builds and data.

Outliers prove what is possible with 585's, but unless successful measures are taken to maximize the power levels offered by 585's, they will make power "same as" 558's or SIII's.

I am racking my brain to come up with any "in business" tuner, other than @VALLEYRACING or Llyodz, that has demonstrated the ability to maximize TS builds. The only outlier on this subject is the top performing TS we have data for, which was tuned using a PCV on top of a PV3 flash by a Canadian tuning shop..
While I am no expert,but what I see on posted dyno charts is the 585 cams are proven to be the ultimate performer out of the Stg 111,558,and other off the shelf cam grinds.My 558s produce excellent torque and mid range power- pretty much suited to most owner's riding style,and mine 80% of the time..the other 20% me and my club brothers are racing,and the extra power is
@Skidmore111 , while working on a "properly phrased" response, something new occurred to me.. A realization, a new deduction from the forums' power data postings, that I'd not thought of before.

The recent "outlier", a posting of a dyno chart from a Lloydz tuned 116 (2021 Roadmaster Limited, Lloyds 585 cams, V&H’s...) has had me reviewing the forums' compendium of power charts - so it wasn't much of a stretch to "refigure" it all from a cam choice angle.

So, based on an analysis of the forums' chart data :

For the vast majority of TS owners, it makes NO DIFFERENCE which cam is being run . SIII's , 558's, and 585's all make the similar power levels for the vast majority of the memberships' posted builds and data.

Outliers prove what is possible with 585's, but unless successful measures are taken to maximize the power levels offered by 585's, they will make power "same as" 558's or SIII's.

I am racking my brain to come up with any "in business" tuner, other than @VALLEYRACING or Llyodz, that has demonstrated the ability to maximize TS builds. The only outlier on this subject is the top performing TS we have data for, which was tuned using a PCV on top of a PV3 flash by a Canadian tuning
@Skidmore111 , while working on a "properly phrased" response, something new occurred to me.. A realization, a new deduction from the forums' power data postings, that I'd not thought of before.

The recent "outlier", a posting of a dyno chart from a Lloydz tuned 116 (2021 Roadmaster Limited, Lloyds 585 cams, V&H’s...) has had me reviewing the forums' compendium of power charts - so it wasn't much of a stretch to "refigure" it all from a cam choice angle.

So, based on an analysis of the forums' chart data :

For the vast majority of TS owners, it makes NO DIFFERENCE which cam is being run . SIII's , 558's, and 585's all make the similar power levels for the vast majority of the memberships' posted builds and data.

Outliers prove what is possible with 585's, but unless successful measures are taken to maximize the power levels offered by 585's, they will make power "same as" 558's or SIII's.

I am racking my brain to come up with any "in business" tuner, other than @VALLEYRACING or Llyodz, that has demonstrated the ability to maximize TS builds. The only outlier on this subject is the top performing TS we have data for, which was tuned using a PCV on top of a PV3 flash by a Canadian tuning shop..
@Skidmore111 , while working on a "properly phrased" response, something new occurred to me.. A realization, a new deduction from the forums' power data postings, that I'd not thought of before.

The recent "outlier", a posting of a dyno chart from a Lloydz tuned 116 (2021 Roadmaster Limited, Lloyds 585 cams, V&H’s...) has had me reviewing the forums' compendium of power charts - so it wasn't much of a stretch to "refigure" it all from a cam choice angle.

So, based on an analysis of the forums' chart data :

For the vast majority of TS owners, it makes NO DIFFERENCE which cam is being run . SIII's , 558's, and 585's all make the similar power levels for the vast majority of the memberships' posted builds and data.

Outliers prove what is possible with 585's, but unless successful measures are taken to maximize the power levels offered by 585's, they will make power "same as" 558's or SIII's.

I am racking my brain to come up with any "in business" tuner, other than @VALLEYRACING or Llyodz, that has demonstrated the ability to maximize TS builds. The only outlier on this subject is the top performing TS we have data for, which was tuned using a PCV on top of a PV3 flash by a Canadian tuning shop..
''In business"" tuners have always been far and few... Perhaps these""cookie cutter" tuners are Instructed to keep a customers tune safe,and not tune for optimal performance,and I believe most target reliability& drivability.
The highly skilled tuners probably are competitive by nature,performance enthusiats,and take pride in their craft.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
''In business"" tuners have always been far and few... Perhaps these""cookie cutter" tuners are Instructed to keep a customers tune safe,and not tune for optimal performance,and I believe most target reliability& drivability.
The highly skilled tuners probably are competitive by nature,performance enthusiats,and take pride in their craft.
[/QUOTE]

Keep a customers' tune safe ? Nope.. There is nothing safe about raising (leaning) the WOT of an engine up to 1 full point from stock settings - as the cookie cutter tunes do.. Combine this WOT leaning with little to no ignition curve revamping ( for the leaner, slower burning, WOT fueling) and you create 100hp/120trq TS engines (give or take a HP/Trq or two) regardless of cam choices - which is what we see a lot of..

No, IMO, they have no idea what they're doing - they have no idea what the stock programming parameters are - no idea what a mod combo requires - and no knowledge that would allow them to tune any other way other than the same-o same-o they are used to doing..

In fact, if a modified TS is running stock programming - meaning not any of the "Stage X" programming, I bet it would have higher numbers/curves if the "tuner" simply removed the upper RPM detune and left the ignition and fueling alone , compared to saddling it with a leaned out WOT fueling curve.
 

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Or just purchase the WBCX for the PV3 and tune your bike and install the Wideband o2 sensors and interface. This is what the Lloyd'z remote tuning does, but you don't keep the WB equipment. The equations for WB tuning only are built in Power Core to get it done. Or there are wb/nb tune equations from Dynojet available (not based on ours).

I would not run the PCV in conjunction with a PV3 tune. It just seems like a kludge to me and the cost is the same.
Completely agree ... my post was just trying to explain the PV3/PCV combo phenomenon.

A qualified tuner of course can and should do all the tuning consistently via PV3!

Besides : if you use the PCV you always will have the issue of either running it with narrowband eliminators (disabling closed loop completely) OR without : and then you have to set the fuelling maps very carefully to only used cells whicj always are hit in open loop only!
All of that is crap ... (But the dyno shops are "doing it" somehow)

The WBCX actually should be part of a PV4!!!
(I am sure though we will never have real time auto tune capabilities on any ECU flasher since there is always the "flashing the ECU cycle" in between. Maybe ... one day we will get a ECU replacement a la Thundermax which can do WB closed loop )

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