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Discussion Starter #1
5 more cubic inches alone will not make that much difference. You need to get more fuel in faster and get the exhaust out fast. That is what the new 116 bore kit really does. The key to this kit is the new enlarged intake manifold. At www.IndianAftermarket.com I have been trying to figure out a way to enlarge the intake manifold or make a new larger one. So far I have not figured it out. This kit solves the issue. The stage 3 cams help with the flow also. They want you to buy an Indian exhaust and intake as part of the deal. If you can get the bore kit installed and use a higher flow intake and exhaust it will be even more powerful. The new MAP will need adjusting with a aftermarket intake and exhaust. Indian tries very hard to make you only buy their stuff. I have worked with Dobeck and we already have a more powerful EJK ready. It will allow you to get a lot more fuel into the monster. Completely new MAPs will have to been written for the Power Commander type systems. This will take a while. If anyone does this upgrade and uses aftermarket pipes and intake (preferably mine) I can loan you the new EJK to try. I will work with someone to get a report of results. If any of these comments have errors please correct me.
 

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Indian had three 116cu. bikes for demo at the Long Beach Show yesterday. I didn't have time to ride one, but I talked to the rep about it. He started one up and explained the differences. It's not for everyone he said. The throttle response is way quicker, with 80% torque coming on with approx. 1/3rd throttle. The Stage 3 cams have an even more loping sound to them. He also said the installation labor will average about $800. since the motor doesn't need to be removed from the frame.

On a side note, 116 cubic inches convert to 1901 cubic centimeters. Coincidence, that that is the first year of Indian production?
 

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5 more cubic inches alone will not make that much difference. You need to get more fuel in faster and get the exhaust out fast. That is what the new 116 bore kit really does. The key to this kit is the new enlarged intake manifold. At www.IndianAftermarket.com I have been trying to figure out a way to enlarge the intake manifold or make a new larger one. So far I have not figured it out. This kit solves the issue. The stage 3 cams help with the flow also. They want you to buy an Indian exhaust and intake as part of the deal. If you can get the bore kit installed and use a higher flow intake and exhaust it will be even more powerful. The new MAP will need adjusting with a aftermarket intake and exhaust. Indian tries very hard to make you only buy their stuff. I have worked with Dobeck and we already have a more powerful EJK ready. It will allow you to get a lot more fuel into the monster. Completely new MAPs will have to been written for the Power Commander type systems. This will take a while. If anyone does this upgrade and uses aftermarket pipes and intake (preferably mine) I can loan you the new EJK to try. I will work with someone to get a report of results. If any of these comments have errors please correct me.
The real difference is not in the throttle body or the manifold. It is in the different piston design and cams. Increased compression ratio with presumably better "squish" characteristics, along with the different cams for better cylinder filling, is where the real magic lives. Just putting a larger bore intake and throttle body on a stock engine won't make much difference, it may even loose some performance in the lower RPM ranges due to decreased intake velocity causing charge stratification (atomized fuel not fully mixing with the incoming air).
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Good point and info. I forgot about the compression ratio steeping up. This new set up with aftermarket pipes and intake could be a whole new beast. This is an expensive hobby but a lot of fun. I will have to do it to my 2016 Springfield once the kit is available next spring. Got to catch up to the new Tesla roadster. (At 0-60 in 1.9 seconds you might need to tape your hands to the grips and super glue your butt.)
 

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InHe also said the installation labor will average about $800. since the motor doesn't need to be removed from the frame.
Interesting... as when the S-2 cams came out, a lot of dealers are clueless and folks are running around saying the motors need to be pulled for this install. A month from now, it'll all calm down and folks will have the install fine tuned. The wrench i use does a set of cams in 25 min. Guessing this won't be an overwhelming install for him either.
 

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Indian had three 116cu. bikes for demo at the Long Beach Show yesterday. I didn't have time to ride one, but I talked to the rep about it. He started one up and explained the differences. It's not for everyone he said. The throttle response is way quicker, with 80% torque coming on with approx. 1/3rd throttle. The Stage 3 cams have an even more loping sound to them. He also said the installation labor will average about $800. since the motor doesn't need to be removed from the frame.

On a side note, 116 cubic inches convert to 1901 cubic centimeters. Coincidence, that that is the first year of Indian production?
Wow ... so removing heads, push rod tubes and cylinders with the engine still in the frame. This is VERY interesting!
(If this is really possible, then it applies to a few other kits emerging on the market now ... Arsenal and Star Power e.g. ... the Lloydz kit has "crank balancing" and rods as option and then it gets "complicated" )
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I was wondering if they just made the heads 1/4" taller to get that 2.5 CI per cylinder. There is not any room above the cylinders to work while the engine is on the bike. Removing sleeves or boring you must remove the engine. But you could remove the tank, heads and bolt new heads and intake in place with out removing the engine. What do you guys think?
 

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Indian had three 116cu. bikes for demo at the Long Beach Show yesterday. I didn't have time to ride one, but I talked to the rep about it. He started one up and explained the differences. It's not for everyone he said. The throttle response is way quicker, with 80% torque coming on with approx. 1/3rd throttle. The Stage 3 cams have an even more loping sound to them. He also said the installation labor will average about $800. since the motor doesn't need to be removed from the frame.

On a side note, 116 cubic inches convert to 1901 cubic centimeters. Coincidence, that that is the first year of Indian production?
The throttle response can be adjusted. I personally want a little bit of grace on the low end of the throttle so I don't go shooting across intersections. My first FuelMoto tune for the 111 had the throttle response set a lot "touchier" than the Indian standard tune, but I adjusted that to my liking with the PVCX. If they make this kit for a '16 bike, which I hope they do (or maybe it does, reports vary), I would probably just use the throttle response tables I've worked out in my current tune, or at least use that as a starting point.
 

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Indian had three 116cu. bikes for demo at the Long Beach Show yesterday. I didn't have time to ride one, but I talked to the rep about it. He started one up and explained the differences. It's not for everyone he said. The throttle response is way quicker, with 80% torque coming on with approx. 1/3rd throttle. The Stage 3 cams have an even more loping sound to them. He also said the installation labor will average about $800. since the motor doesn't need to be removed from the frame.

On a side note, 116 cubic inches convert to 1901 cubic centimeters. Coincidence, that that is the first year of Indian production?
Any chance you have official Indian reference to leaving the engine in while doing the conversion?
 

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Most reviews I've read of the new 116 equipped bikes note some bad behavior from the throttle. Namely, extremely twitchy at low speeds and a tendency to "surge" at steady throttle. Almost certainly due to the super lean tune Indian flashes in order for the kit to be approved as street legal and EPA compliant.

With a good tune, there's no reason the 116 should be any more rowdy, or hard to handle, than the 111. If the extra torque seems to make it lurchy and abrupt around town, soften up the DBW curve a bit. I've noticed almost all the aftermarket flash tunes substantially ramp up the requested torque curve, which kind of makes the bike seem faster than it is since it gives you more throttle with less twist grip rotation, either way, 100% twist grip= 100% throttle, so the bike really isn't any faster. I always just found this makes it jumpy and hard to ride smoothly at low speeds. As said, you hit a bump and go shooting through an intersection. I've always reset the DBW values back to what they are in the .STK file. Nice and smooth.
 

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I'm liking what I'm reading, seeing and hearing about this pending upgrade. But here are the facts: the upgrades will be EPA compliant, so just like your stock 111, the 116 will run LEAN and HOT. The bump in compression will make it run even HOTTER. But the critical (and next) bottleneck to real neck snapping performance will be the heads. With more fuel in and spent exhaust gases out....but no way to get the heads to flow more air......I don't think the results will be overly impressive. Don't get me wrong, it may FEEL and SOUND fast(er), but as some of you said earlier, it will depend in how PI remaps the ECU on the throttle response side of things. I think I'm just going to wait for the aftermarket to catch up here....and really deliver some torque pounding numbers for our Thunderstrokes. The marketing guys have figured out that us power junkies just can't wait for our next power fix....and they tease us with 5 ci, then it will be the next 5 ci the year after to get us to 121 ci, (which will only start HP wars with HD again) and so on and so on. For guys like me, I just keep my bike (vs, buy a new one every couple years) and make the upgrades I want....much cheaper on your wallet. It's only money......and if you need a place to park it and have that "just have to have mentality" which PI marketing guru's have figured out, I think they'll sell some of these kits. But it's going to be ONE HOT (temp) *****, trust me. My local dealer will be installing a BBK in a 2018 Chieftain. I'm hoping they put a ton of miles (and scratches!) on it, then give it away as a demo bike this time next year. Maybe santa will be good to me!!! ;)o_O Just my opinion, for what it's worth.
 

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I'm liking what I'm reading, seeing and hearing about this pending upgrade. But here are the facts: the upgrades will be EPA compliant, so just like your stock 111, the 116 will run LEAN and HOT..
The 116 I rode seemed normal temp wise. I actually never even noticed any heat which is a good thing. The touchy/surginess of the throttle definitely. Needs a good FM PVCX.
 

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The 116 I rode seemed normal temp wise. I actually never even noticed any heat which is a good thing. The touchy/surginess of the throttle definitely. Needs a good FM PVCX.
What was the outside temp on your demo ride? As soon as the outside air heats up, it only compounds the heat to our sleds. I do have a PVCX on my current S2 111, but it still makes heat on long rides...and when stopped in traffic. It's an air cooled engine....it's gonna make heat.
 

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What was the outside temp on your demo ride? As soon as the outside air heats up, it only compounds the heat to our sleds. I do have a PVCX on my current S2 111, but it still makes heat on long rides...and when stopped in traffic. It's an air cooled engine....it's gonna make heat.
Warm day probably close to 85 deg.
 

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Most reviews I've read of the new 116 equipped bikes note some bad behavior from the throttle. Namely, extremely twitchy at low speeds and a tendency to "surge" at steady throttle. Almost certainly due to the super lean tune Indian flashes in order for the kit to be approved as street legal and EPA compliant.

With a good tune, there's no reason the 116 should be any more rowdy, or hard to handle, than the 111. If the extra torque seems to make it lurchy and abrupt around town, soften up the DBW curve a bit. I've noticed almost all the aftermarket flash tunes substantially ramp up the requested torque curve, which kind of makes the bike seem faster than it is since it gives you more throttle with less twist grip rotation, either way, 100% twist grip= 100% throttle, so the bike really isn't any faster. I always just found this makes it jumpy and hard to ride smoothly at low speeds. As said, you hit a bump and go shooting through an intersection. I've always reset the DBW values back to what they are in the .STK file. Nice and smooth.
Got to agree with you on the twitchy throttle. Great if you have two speeds: idle and WOT! I experienced it with the PVCX with both the DJ and FM tunes. Reset the throttle by wire settings to close to stock and I'm a happy camper.
 
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