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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Will It Be Yours?

First of all, I want to thank Ray'sRed1 for posting this link in
the "Launch Of The Scout In Burt Munro Land" thread. (Thanks Ray) and Thanks Lock & Load for the thread. :)
John Munro to assist with Scout unveil in NZ - Motoring - NZ Herald News

For those who don't know who Burt Munro was, here is a quick snippit:

"Burt's feats on a 47 year old bike at the Bonneville Salt Flats were bought to life in the 2005 movie The World's Fastest Indian - to modify a bike's top speed from 96km/hour to over 320km/hour shows his sheer determination, grit and ingenuity, all attributes that resonate with our Kiwi riders,"

I propose the initiation of the idea of encouraging the building of the next "World's Fastest Indian"
In fact, I will take the idea further, to encourage the organization of a "World's Fastest Indian" competition,
which pays tribute to Burt Munro and challenges the would be contender to match or exceed his unofficial
timed speed.
A competition which allows owners of the New Indian Scout can forge their skills and determination, grit and ingenuity, in the effort of joining that elite standard set by Burt Munro.

Here is the kicker: There is not just one goal to be set here, but two.

The first goal is to meet the 200+mph unofficial clocked speed record 331 km/h (205.67 mph).

"The unofficial speed record (officially timed) is 331 km/h (205.67 mph) for a flying mile"
Burt Munro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The second goal, which IS the REAL test, the TRUE Burt Munro Challenge:
To exceed by 3.45 times that of the 2015 Scout's original OEM Factory top speed.

What does this mean?
IF the 2015 Scout's (officially timed) top speed were 130mph, you must meet, to tie, or exceed 448.5 mph
for a flying mile, on your 2015 Indian Scout.
You read that right, 448.5 mph! before you can truly say and it be truly recognized that you broke Burt Munro's Record.

It is my personal opinion, that Burt Munro's record will stand the test of time. Nevertheless, I think
if there was to be a very serious and worthy tribute to Burt Munro's legacy, it would be pursued by
those who can truly appreciate how significant his feat was and who can demonstrate the dedicated
determination, grit and ingenuity Burt Munro possessed to accomplish his own personal dream.

To all the Kiwis and those down under, you all have every right to be proud of your man, Burt.
Another admirable example of the positive Can-Do spirit, so determined, that insures progress,
inspires the imagination and can uplift the soul.

To all of you and to Burt and his family, and of course, Indian Motocycle Company of yesteryear, Indian Motorcycle Co. of today, let me just say: Thank you.

:)
 

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Sounds like faulty science to me. Force is the square of speed, not a mere function of speed. Therefore it should be way the heck easier to go from 60 to 200 than it would be to go from 200 to 448. Someone check my math on this, cause I am in the middle of a busy work day.
 

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Apparently, since Burt Munro was able to make his Scout go 3.45 times faster than it was designed to go, that's the new mark of excellence. 450 Mhp on a motorcycle just seems a bit extreme to me. 120-150 I can deal with.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Where does the 3.45 come from?

"Originally the Scout was capable of about 55 mph."


"His visits to the salt were not without incident. In issue no. 1 of Motorcycle New Zealand, published in 1973 Burt is quoted as follows:-"At the Salt in 1967 we were going like a bomb. Then she got the wobbles just over half way through the run. To slow her down I sat up. The wind tore my goggles off and the blast forced my eyeballs back into my head - couldn't see a thing. We were so far off the black line that we missed a steel marker stake by inches. I put her down - a few scratches all round but nothing much else". At the time Burt was traveling at close to 206 mph!"

Burt Munro - A New Zealand Legend, The Munro Special
"The Indian Scout was very advanced for it’s time as it had a helical gear transmission and a mechanical oil pump working on a total loss system. The top speed was in the region of 60mph."

"On the 26th August 1967 Burt claimed the World Record Class S-A 1000cc – with an average speed of 183.586mph (one way 190.07mph). This record still stands to this very day."
The Worlds Fastest Indian - The Burt Munro Story, Indian Scout Motorbike, NZ Motorcycle Speed Record


Ray, that's a good question. I was extremely exhausted around the time I originally posted this thread.
Calculations may be off, so I offer a research-based revision below.

I've seen Burt's 1920 Indian Scout original top speed invariably be said as being capable of either 55 mph, 60 mph and as high as 65 mph.

The 3.45 was rounded off when I was using 60mph as the OE 1920 Scout's Top Speed benchmark.
3.45 x 60 mph yields 207 mph

Revised the multiplier for the original published top speed for Muno's Scout would be:

A) at 55 mph: 3.7394545454545454545454545454545
B) at 60 mph: 3.4278333333333333333333333333333
C) at 65 mph: 3.1641538461538461538461538461538

With those multipliers in mind, we calculate the current soon to be released 2015 Scout's (presently assumed)
Factory Top Speed to find the Target Goal Top Speed.

IF the 2015 Indian Scout's Factory Top speed is / = the new proportional benchmark:
125 mph
x 3.7394545454545454545454545454545 = 467.43181818181818181818181818175 mph
x 3.4278333333333333333333333333333 = 428.47916666666666666666666666663 mph
x 3.1641538461538461538461538461538 = 395.51923076923076923076923076913 mph

130 mph
x 3.7394545454545454545454545454545 = 486.12909090909090909090909090902 mph
x 3.4278333333333333333333333333333 = 445.61833333333333333333333333329 mph
x 3.1641538461538461538461538461538 = 411.33999999999999999999999999989 mph

140 mph
x 3.7394545454545454545454545454545 = 523.52363636363636363636363636356 mph
x 3.4278333333333333333333333333333 = 479.89666666666666666666666666662 mph
x 3.1641538461538461538461538461538 = 442.98153846153846153846153846142 mph

150 mph
x 3.7394545454545454545454545454545 = 560.9181818181818181818181818181 mph
x 3.4278333333333333333333333333333 = 514.17499999999999999999999999995 mph
x 3.1641538461538461538461538461538 = 474.62307692307692307692307692295 mph

160 mph (speed potential (rounded) based upon OE 2015 Indian Scout's gear ratios and tire diameter and max rpm)
x 3.7394545454545454545454545454545 = 598.31272727272727272727272727264 mph
x 3.4278333333333333333333333333333 = 548.45333333333333333333333333328 mph
x 3.1641538461538461538461538461538 = 506.26461538461538461538461538448 mph

As anyone can imagine, to PROPORTIONALLY meet or tie Burt Munro's Unofficial Top Speed,
the figures like those, above, have to be considered the targets for the new "World's Fastest Indian, then,
a LOT of hard work and dedication will definitely be required.
The words "Can't Be Done!", "IMPOSSIBLE!!" and "You're INSANE!!!" themed responses are to be expected.
May well be true.
If anything, those figures should put into perspective and give a sense of what great a feat Burt Munro had truly
achieved in his life time.
In short, I am attempting express my appreciation and admiration for Mr. Munro's fiercely determined and dedicated
efforts and hard work for nearly 50 years.
That's my point, here.

So to whomever may be reading this, or not, to that unknown person, out there, who's got what it takes, all I can say
is good luck. To the man who exceeds the proportional record, remember you have 47 years to do it with the original
2015 Indian Scout engine as Burt had done, before. No double engines, engine and transmission mods are allowed
as is the framework, suspension and wheels, but the engine, itself, must remain visually obvious to be Indian's
2015 Indian Scout original 69" casework - That's your challenge.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Apparently, since Burt Munro was able to make his Scout go 3.45 times faster than it was designed to go, that's the new mark of excellence. 450 Mhp on a motorcycle just seems a bit extreme to me. 120-150 I can deal with.
Exactly. You got the idea with the new mark of excellence.
and...
Yep, 450mph IS a bit extreme.
 

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hallo all,

i saw also this movie with Anthony Hopkins, absolut great. I think, the 2015 Scout is a homage for the Scout of Burt. Not more and not less...we shouldnt compare this old and the new Scout, it wouldn be serious. Indian, or better Polaris focus in my opinion to create a very sporty mashine with a modern engine. We know, Indian isnt a cheap brand, but this Scout had an attractive Price, so in my mind they want with this motocycle to give riders of other brands a Signal, Indian must not only be big and heavy and very expensiv, we have also now a smaller sporty Model in our model line. So i think they want to get new customers over this way.
 

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I can see one being built to top 207 MPH but 450 MPH is a Pipe Dream ..
 

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Topping 207 mph with the new Scout shouldn't be too hard. To build a vehicle that could top 450 mph, it would have very little if any Scout left in it. There is a law of diminishing returns with weight reduction, power increase and aerodynamics. To go from a top speed of 60 mph to a top speed of 120 mph is a lot easier than going from a top speed of 120 mph to 180 mph, and exponential more difficult to get to 240 mph. It will eventually get to the point where adding an extra 200 hp gets you and extra 2 or 3 mph top speed. At that speed pushing the air out of the way is like pushing thick liquid concrete out of the way.
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Topping 207 mph with the new Scout shouldn't be too hard. To build a vehicle that could top 450 mph, it would have very little if any Scout left in it. There is a law of diminishing returns with weight reduction, power increase and aerodynamics. To go from a top speed of 60 mph to a top speed of 120 mph is a lot easier than going from a top speed of 120 mph to 180 mph, and exponential more difficult to get to 240 mph. It will eventually get to the point where adding an extra 200 hp gets you and extra 2 or 3 mph top speed. At that speed pushing the air out of the way is like pushing thick liquid concrete out of the way.
Exactly.

I can see one being built to top 207 MPH but 450 MPH is a Pipe Dream ..
Exactly.
I don't think it can be done. Someone may try. But I don't think can be done.
Which is why I think that Burt Munro's record, on that wise, is clearly secured for all time.
That was my point. His, is truly a remarkable story.
 

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If we compare apples to apples as they say this theory is slightly skewed.
Burt Munro did not take a new Indian out for a run but an older Indian (1920- 600cc). He did a remarkable job of making the old Indian run at a speed that was on the surface impossible at the time. Could that (3.45) have been done with a new Indian? Speeds in the 60's were up a bit from the 55mph of the Indian in 1920.

The challenge is to run a bike in the same class as Burt and beat his record not be 3.45 times as fast. Burt actually ran in three different classes.

If we fast forward 47 years from now technology may have advanced to the point we could in fact run today's Scout 3.45 times as fast as it's top speed today. If we increase the engine size proportionally to Burt's who knows.

I find the Burt Munro story very inspiring and think that it be left alone.
 

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Topping 207 mph with the new Scout shouldn't be too hard. To build a vehicle that could top 450 mph, it would have very little if any Scout left in it. There is a law of diminishing returns with weight reduction, power increase and aerodynamics. To go from a top speed of 60 mph to a top speed of 120 mph is a lot easier than going from a top speed of 120 mph to 180 mph, and exponential more difficult to get to 240 mph. It will eventually get to the point where adding an extra 200 hp gets you and extra 2 or 3 mph top speed. At that speed pushing the air out of the way is like pushing thick liquid concrete out of the way.
Eggs Ackley what I am saying. That proportion of speed is not nearly the same as the proportion of power you need. It's not mathematically analogous. Doesn't matter how many decimals you put behind your number, you're looking at it wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
If we compare apples to apples as they say this theory is slightly skewed.
Burt Munro did not take a new Indian out for a run but an older Indian (1920- 600cc). He did a remarkable job of making the old Indian run at a speed that was on the surface impossible at the time. Could that (3.45) have been done with a new Indian? Speeds in the 60's were up a bit from the 55mph of the Indian in 1920.
The challenge is to run a bike in the same class as Burt and beat his record not be 3.45 times as fast. Burt actually ran in three different classes.
If we fast forward 47 years from now technology may have advanced to the point we could in fact run today's Scout 3.45 times as fast as it's top speed today. If we increase the engine size proportionally to Burt's who knows.
I find the Burt Munro story very inspiring and think that it be left alone.
Since we're just talking theory, here, let's take a remedial gander:

Munro's Scout's engine's factory original displacement was 37cid (600cc)
At the time of Munro unofficial 205.67 mph record, the engine was punched to 58cid (950cc)
1.5833333333333333333333333333333 times the original displacement of 37cid (600).

In that vein, we multiply the 69inch (1133cc) and arrive at 109.24999999999999999999999999998 cid or 109.25cid rounded up /
1793.9166666666666666666666666663cc or 1793.92 rounded up)

Today's 2015 Indian Scout's would have to be punched to a maximum of 109.25cid (1793.92cc) which is, coincidentally, quite near
unto the 2014-15 IMC Chief's 111cid (1811cc) engine displacement. - Not much of an increase and possibly, not quite doable in practice.

IF we were to base it on the top speed multiplier and used my revised figure of 3.739 that 2015 Scout would be approx. 258cid (4236.8cc)
Since it's probably not likely that the engine can be enlarged to that displacement, the next reasonable solution, would be
to couple four 69" powerplants into one streamliner chassis, not unlike the Summer's Brothers Goldenrod streamliner which consisted
of 4 naturally aspiriated Chrysler Hemi V8s, coupled in series, which achieved 409.277 mph back in 1965.

4 wheeled (Single engined)
Today, the Poteet and Main Speed Demon holds the unofficial record "one-way run of 457 MPH with an exit speed of 462 MPH"
Poteet & Main Speed Demon, 439.024 MPH - Landspeed Events - Landspeed Events


The current record holder is the Ack Attack streamliner which uses a pair of turbocharged Suzuki Hayabusas engines and is currently "World's Fastest Motorcycle" at 376.363 mph / 605.697 kmph
ACK ATTACK — World's Fastest Motorcycle


As you can see, our 69" is lookin' to fall short of being capable that goal which I outlined earlier and illustrates the how and why I think Burt Munro's record is quite secured.

However, IF we allow some wiggle room and compromises and target the overall top speed records, forgoing the strict rules, it IS possible and reasonable to assume
that through R&D and persistance, with a train of souped up multi-engined powered Indian Scout streamliner that, may, indeed, be capable of not only exceeding the Ack Attack motorcycle record of 376.363 mph, but also the Speed Demon's present' 462mph exit record for 4 wheeled car, as well.
And 460mph is knockin' on 500mph's door for wheel-driven class vehicles.

Obviously, it's not enough to just build a muti-engine streamliner but also increasing it's rev ceiling by at least double+ (aka 16-18k rpm redline).
To do that, may require the elimination of the valvetrain as we know it. - I have had an idea for about 15 years, that does this and it is via a
recipricating side-mount plunger pin valve or twist pin valve actuated by servos. IMHO the twist pin approach makes more sense. Either way, valve float and piston
damage is certainly eliminated.
the other issue is piston speed. The piston speed refers to the distance traveled along the bore through each up and down stroke.
The longer the stroke which favors torque, the slower the allowed speed and thus rpm. The shorter the stroke, which favors horsepower, the higher the rpm rev limit.

Another area is fuel formulation which is designed for maximum combustion energy potentential.

Well, anyway, I agree with you, Munro's record probably should be left alone, primarily because I don't think it can be touched and it would be more
of a waste of the record pursuer's time and efforts seeing the proportional goals suggests such a high speed for a single engine.
 

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From a physics perspective the ~3.5 speed increase doesn't make sense as horsepower to achieve speed increases exponentially. A well faired motorcycle takes about 180 hp to maintain the 207 record. The same bike, unchanged in weight, shape, and frontage, to achieve 450 mph would require almost 1900 hp. Don't think the 2015 Indian Scout has a fusion reactor. Increasing the horsepower by the ratio Munro did would be a notable achievement. We are completing a Indian Scout Street Rod with 141 hp that should be in the 180-190 mph range depending on rider weight.
 

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From a physics perspective the ~3.5 speed increase doesn't make sense as horsepower to achieve speed increases exponentially. A well faired motorcycle takes about 180 hp to maintain the 207 record. The same bike, unchanged in weight, shape, and frontage, to achieve 450 mph would require almost 1900 hp. Don't think the 2015 Indian Scout has a fusion reactor. Increasing the horsepower by the ratio Munro did would be a notable achievement. We are completing a Indian Scout Street Rod with 141 hp that should be in the 180-190 mph range depending on rider weight.
But shouldn't you wait until the motor is 47 years old?:rolleyes:
 

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I say an apples to apples challenge would be to use an original 1920's scout and THEN try to beat his records. That's way more feasible, safer than 400mph, and realistic.
 

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This is what a world record motorcycle looks like:



It went 322 mph, and was in the 183ci (3000cc) class. Campos ran in the S-AF class, which is the same classification as Munro but of course Munro did 184mph in the 1000cc class. There's just no way to get to 450mph with a motor like the Scout. Campos had multiple motors.

The current overall motorcycle speed record is held by Chris Carr in BUB Seven at 367 mph, with a 3000cc turbocharged V4 pushing 500hp.





Surely the 400mph barrier will be broken in the next few years, but it ain't gonna be a Scout engine doing it. Even Munro's motor was pretty much not an Indian motor anymore.

The other problem is rules have changed since 1967. If you're in a streamliner, the motor and fuel tank have to be separated from the rider by a wall, as does the front tire. You also have to have a fire suppression system, a parachute, roll cage, and driver restraints.. I think these rule changes more than anything else keep Munro's record safe.
 

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I say an apples to apples challenge would be to use an original 1920's scout and THEN try to beat his records. That's way more feasible, safer than 400mph, and realistic.
Makes Sense to me ..
 
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