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Discussion Starter #1
So finally was able to get to the dyno and get some numbers. 87 hp, 110 ft lbs. Unfortunately I don’t have a baseline from stock. Numbers seem way low then what I’m feeling on the seat. Going to get a few things worked out and hopefully have her back on a different dyno in a few weeks.

  1. I know there is a quite a few people withstage 3 cams installed, what is your take on this? The bike is night and day from stock.
 

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Those seem low, like an FM tuned s2 set up. I'm going to FM in one month for s3 jackpot and tune. I expect at least mid 90's hp and close to 120 tq.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Those seem low, like an FM tuned s2 set up. I'm going to FM in one month for s3 jackpot and tune. I expect at least mid 90's hp and close to 120 tq.
I was hoping for high 90s and 120 ft lbs. After I installed the slim line headers tHe clutch wouldn’t even hold after Craig tuned it. So it’s hard to believe that only 10ft lbs over stock would make the clutch slip horribly ...
 

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I was hoping for high 90s and 120 ft lbs. After I installed the slim line headers tHe clutch wouldn’t even hold after Craig tuned it. So it’s hard to believe that only 10ft lbs over stock would make the clutch slip horribly ...

A friend just dropped some Lloydz 558 cams in his stock Vintage and got it dyno tuned and he was getting 93 HP and 117 Torque
 

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Discussion Starter #5
A friend just dropped some Lloydz 558 cams in his stock Vintage and got it dyno tuned and he was getting 93 HP and 117 Torque
Wow! I’m running VP intake, rinehart headers and Indian slip ons. With a Craig tune. He gave me air/fuel ratio but it might have been done with a sniffer so probably not to accurate, something seemed off as he was trying to sell me a tune for $500. There’s a local guy that is very well know for his tuning if I was gana get it tuned By someone other then Craig. Definitely not going back here.
 

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Wow! I’m running VP intake, rinehart headers and Indian slip ons. With a Craig tune. He gave me air/fuel ratio but it might have been done with a sniffer so probably not to accurate, something seemed off as he was trying to sell me a tune for $500. There’s a local guy that is very well know for his tuning if I was gana get it tuned By someone other then Craig. Definitely not going back here.

Keep in mind many tuners on dyno's tune for wide open throttle and max HP/Torque. I believe Craig's approach is not necessarily numbers but a more even smooth ride power response. He can correct me if I am wrong but I thought that he mentioned that a while back. Also a lot of dyno tuner advance the hell out of timing for power, but it is right on the detonation threshold.

Also Lloydz cams are more agressive than the Indian stage 3 so that in itself may explain the differences.

Most if not all the aftermarket Intakes perform the same.
 

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I seriously can't believe the 116 all cammed up is so low on torque.
My Kwaka 125ci does 163 ft lbs (221 Nm) for only 9 ci bigger.
Odd torque numbers there for the 116. Maybe design differences?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Keep in mind many tuners on dyno's tune for wide open throttle and max HP/Torque. I believe Craig's approach is not necessarily numbers but a more even smooth ride power response. He can correct me if I am wrong but I thought that he mentioned that a while back. Also a lot of dyno tuner advance the hell out of timing for power, but it is right on the detonation threshold.

Also Lloydz cams are more agressive than the Indian stage 3 so that in itself may explain the differences.

Most if not all the aftermarket Intakes perform the same.
We defiantly know the lloydz are more aggressive but you think that much of a difference? Seems way low at the seat of the pants. I mean we’re talking just over 10hp 10ft lbs over a stock bike with a stock tune. I guess we will have to wait and see from others who post their charts.
 

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I seriously can't believe the 116 all cammed up is so low on torque.
My Kwaka 125ci does 163 ft lbs (221 Nm) for only 9 ci bigger.
Odd torque numbers there for the 116. Maybe design differences?
we were talking stock 111 with just cams
 

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@Darkhorse88....
What you feel is bigger than the numbers suggest because you now have a power curve that is elevated over your old power curve at every single RPM point. When you elevate a power curve over the entire RPM range, it does not take much to register on the Dynobutt as a "completely new animal"... But, those "too low" numbers are suspect IMO.

I agree, forum data/reports do NOT support the stock clutch slipping with "only" 110 lb ft. 120-125 lb ft seems to be the point where it is guaranteed that the stock clutch will need upgrading (at some point soon based on usage)..

I won't accuse your dyno operator of fraudulence, but certainly, from now on, make it clear that you are NOT interested in any tuning services - you just want your power curves AND AFR charts. You personally make sure your rear tire is aired up to max allowable before staging on a dyno. And watch carefully as they stage and then run your bike. With the AFR chart, Craig could make changes to your WOT fueling (assuming you are not tuning with widebands).. I assume you are running the 60mm throttle body on the VP (which is what it is designed to use)..

I would have expected around 107 hp /130 lb ft from your build.. My genetic defect (warehousing 111 and Scout builds and their charts) can point to many examples of "87/110" results - all from basically stock stage II builds. I note that the LOWEST reported VP60 power levels were from a stage 2 111 running crap (V&H) slipons - 93hp...


I'm thinking you'll be replacing those charts, on the top post, after your next dyno session..
 

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Hey Darkhorse. I don't buy these charts at all. I think this guy was screwing this up and fishing for more money out of you. Then he probably wouldn't have done much of anything and bam! better numbers and you out the 5 Bill's. Just my 2 cents.
 

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Thinking of having Indian V Twin Performance put in just the Stage 3 Cams in my 111 with a pair of Rinehart Slims. This would do it.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
@Darkhorse88....
What you feel is bigger than the numbers suggest because you now have a power curve that is elevated over your old power curve at every single RPM point. When you elevate a power curve over the entire RPM range, it does not take much to register on the Dynobutt as a "completely new animal"... But, those "too low" numbers are suspect IMO.

I agree, forum data/reports do NOT support the stock clutch slipping with "only" 110 lb ft. 120-125 lb ft seems to be the point where it is guaranteed that the stock clutch will need upgrading (at some point soon based on usage)..

I won't accuse your dyno operator of fraudulence, but certainly, from now on, make it clear that you are NOT interested in any tuning services - you just want your power curves AND AFR charts. You personally make sure your rear tire is aired up to max allowable before staging on a dyno. And watch carefully as they stage and then run your bike. With the AFR chart, Craig could make changes to your WOT fueling (assuming you are not tuning with widebands).. I assume you are running the 60mm throttle body on the VP (which is what it is designed to use)..

I would have expected around 107 hp /130 lb ft from your build.. My genetic defect (warehousing 111 and Scout builds and their charts) can point to many examples of "87/110" results - all from basically stock stage II builds. I note that the LOWEST reported VP60 power levels were from a stage 2 111 running crap (V&H) slipons - 93hp...


I'm thinking you'll be replacing those charts, on the top post, after your next dyno session..
It’s hard to accuse anybody of fraudulent acts, but I’ve been around long enough to know when something is up. When’s I first walk in and you tell me your trying to “help me out” I don’t buy that, I asked for just numbers and when you try to sell me something on top of not listening to how I tune I knew exactly I wasn’t going back. He told me road tuning isn’t accurate (which we all know is more accurate load wise) and why spend money on WBCX when I could pay him $$ to the tune right.

Im running the 54mm not the 60, as for reasons I like my torque. I went from having minor clutch slippage with my decated headpipe to 4th 5th and 6th gear were useless after the rinehart headers and Craig’s tune. Like you said data shows more torque requires the clutch to slip under heavy loads. Craig and I are going to work a few things out on the tune (with widebands) and I will be getting it dynoed again.
 

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We don't ride dynos. A well tuned bike is...a well tuned bike. Doesn't really matter what numbers it produces as long as it gets the job done and you are happy with it in the end.

Example...the 461 I had in my GTO probably made north of 600 HP and about the same torque. It would just about rip your head clean off when you mash the gas pedal. It got 12-13 mpg on the highway, ran hot and it lumped pretty bad at idle and just made it not all that much fun to drive. The LS3 I have now makes a little less power and torque but is tuned well and gets good mileage and just runs fantastic. Not as awe inspiring as the 461, but much more enjoyable to drive on a regular basis.



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Discussion Starter #15
We don't ride dynos. A well tuned bike is...a well tuned bike. Doesn't really matter what numbers it produces as long as it gets the job done and you are happy with it in the end.

Example...the 461 I had in my GTO probably made north of 600 HP and about the same torque. It would just about rip your head clean off when you mash the gas pedal. It got 12-13 mpg on the highway, ran hot and it lumped pretty bad at idle and just made it not all that much fun to drive. The LS3 I have now makes a little less power and torque but is tuned well and gets good mileage and just runs fantastic. Not as awe inspiring as the 461, but much more enjoyable to drive on a
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Well for one I’d love to own a 70 chevelle 454, it’s been a dream car of mine since I was knee high to a grass hopper. I respect the old school muscle.
I agree we don’t ride dynos but some of us like to see numbers on top of a well tuned bike. You spend all this money to gain some power and performance and the dyno gives you a little proof of purchase. I’m not here to have the highest numbers. My bike now makes me smile but I still want more at the seat of the pants. Even without the numbers I knew I wanted just a tab bit more power.

I agree, if you makes you happy why bother. For me it’s like a drug, I wish I wasn’t addicted because my wallet would like me hell of a lot better.
 

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We DO ride the dyno.

Dyno tuning is not just WOT tweaking - WOT tweaking is the easy part (since most all do not revamp ignition) ..
A competent tuner will create a comprehensive tune - and use the Dyno to tune the entire operational envelope - meaning, anything an owner would be expected to do with their bike is set up, run, and tuned, on the dyno. Then a tuner should "test ride" the bike in order to vet his work.

At least that is what is suppose to happen.


About the 54mm TB on the VP.. I'm sure yall know the VP inlet I.D. is 60mm - which tapers internally to 54mm at the outlet (which is a match-up with the intake manifold). The VP is a velocity stack. Also, we have no data on results when using a 54mm TB on the VP - it is an unkown.
 

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Darkhorse, just trying to follow along, are you getting significant/noticeable clutch slippage currently?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Darkhorse, just trying to follow along, are you getting significant/noticeable clutch slippage currently?
So I ran Craig’s tune with a decat header all last year. Probably about 3k miles because I was afraid of dropping a valve on stock springs so I didn’t ride as much as I would of liked too. And clutch slippage wasn’t to bad. This year I did the rinehart slim lines and he re tuned it, 4th 5th and 6th gear were useless. Highway pulls from 3k would go right to 5500 rpm by myself with no mrs on the back. So I upgraded to Jeff’s (Indian V-twin performance) 111 clutch springs and haven’t had a problem. I believe the seat pressure is like 93lbs vs like 75 from stock. The stock clutch couldn’t handle it what so ever.

so-no after I switched I don’t have any slippage at all
 

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Looong time ago ... with Powercommander V (2 channel auto tune), lloydz intake and stage 2 cams I dynoed my TS111 with 87hp and 117ftlbs. (on a dynojet!)

Since then a lot has happened:
VP60 ... pvcx ... wbcx ... 585s ... jackpot and now rinehart slimlines ...
I had to upgrade my clutch to barnett extra plate kit after the jackpot came in ... I could slip my stock clutch at will in 6th.

Now having the tune dialed in for my rinehart slimlines (and meanwhile with some bad ass DBW tables) my horse is a bronco!
No beginner bike at all.
A friend (experienced rider currently with a K1600 Grand America) disembarked after a test ride with a slightly pale face and one comment "Scary! I did not open her up in 3rd!"
(ahhemm ...and of course there is some Craig spice in it ... my timing tables got just updated to his latest and finest 585 status and bronco became even snappier)

Do I need dyno numbers? No. Are they "nice to have"? yeah, maybe

As long as I am zipping around at the head of the pack ... leaving 110 CVOs and stock 114s behind and friendly keeping up with tuned stage1 114s all is good.

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